Author Topic: Hafs or Warsh  (Read 1598 times)

ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2018, 12:10:28 AM »
Salaam,




it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.






Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.



- I gave you some examples of differences in spelling of words from what you consider" consistent oldest manuscripts"



- The particular spelling in current manuscript and in some older manuscripts is for a purpose and is not the result of inconsistency,
otherwise this would condradict with Quran verses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.



likewise it was already shown to you numerous times that the oldest manuscripts "consistently" spelled ا ب ر ه ى م abraham (same word/person) in all chapters  and chapter 2 "inconsistency" appears ~200+ years afterwards and likewise the new verse arrangement separating 18 of “29” initialed chapters into separate verses, etc.


There is no logique in changing the spelling only in chapter 2 for the word Ibraheem,
and  changing the arrangement of the initialed chapters only  in 19 chapters and not in the rest of the 29 initialed chapters,
they must have had a source for these particular spellings and arrangement of verses.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.




ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2018, 11:45:35 AM »
Salaam,






Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.




Another example of what you consider " inconsistent" from what you consider "consistent oldest manuscripts":

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/27?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 7 :  الملا

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma naraka illa basharan mithlana wama naraka ittabaAAaka illa allatheena hum arathiluna badiya alrra/yi wama nara lakum AAalayna min fadlin bal nathunnukum kathibeena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا نَرَىٰكَ إِلَّا بَشَرًا مِّثْلَنَا وَ مَا نَرَىٰكَ اتَّبَعَكَ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ هُمْ أَرَاذِلُنَا بَادِيَ الرَّأْيِ وَ مَا نَرَىٰ لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا مِن فَضْلٍ بَلْ نَظُنُّكُمْ كَٰذِبِينَ

So said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved from his people, "Not we see you but a man like us, and not we see you followed [you] except those who [they] (are) the lowest of us immature in opinion. And not we see in you over us any merit; nay, we think you (are) liars."


compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/24?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 2 :  الملوا   with an extra Waw و between the letter Laam and the letter Alif

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma hatha illa basharun mithlukum yureedu an yatafaddala AAalaykum walaw shaa Allahu laanzala mala-ikatan ma samiAAna bihatha fee aba-ina al-awwaleena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَؤُا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا هَٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتَفَضَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ لَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنزَلَ مَلَٰئِكَةً مَّا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِي ءَابَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ

But said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved among his people, "This is not but a man like you, he wishes to assert (his) superiority over you, and if Allah had willed surely He (would have) sent down Angels. Not we heard of this from our forefathers.



I believe that the current manuscript with the particular spelling of some words is the same as the original manuscript.
And that in some other manuscripts some of this particular spelling was lost by some scribes thinking that the same words should be spelled the same way,
not aware that this particular spelling was intended for a purpose.
Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.


Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2018, 02:47:18 PM »
- I gave you some examples of differences in spelling of words from what you consider" consistent oldest manuscripts"

peace, again you gave examples same root slight nuance of words spelled consistently the same in the oldest and newest manuscripts – and again, see usage each word slightly distinct in the same verse.

17:77 سنه sunnata/mannerism ...  لسنتنا lisunnatina/to manner it ours
39:38 برحمه biraḥmatin/in mercy its ...  رحمته raḥmatihi/mercy it his


Furthermore these are consistent and spelled exactly the same each occurrence.

 ا ل ا م ث ل the examples   
 ا ب ر ه ى م abraham (again spelled consistently with ى  ch 2 in oldest manuscripts)

Likewise clear looking at oldest manuscripts preserved in German, French, and British Library’s etc., that  verse # s are “man-made” i.e. no consistency and probably used by scribes back then as check-sum arrangement/s.

The British Library’s oldest Qur’an manuscript now online
http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2016/04/the-british-librarys-oldest-quran-manuscript-now-online.html

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165_fs001r




Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #93 on: September 29, 2018, 02:55:34 PM »
Another example of what you consider " inconsistent" from what you consider "consistent oldest manuscripts":

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/27?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 7 :  الملا

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma naraka illa basharan mithlana wama naraka ittabaAAaka illa allatheena hum arathiluna badiya alrra/yi wama nara lakum AAalayna min fadlin bal nathunnukum kathibeena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا نَرَىٰكَ إِلَّا بَشَرًا مِّثْلَنَا وَ مَا نَرَىٰكَ اتَّبَعَكَ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ هُمْ أَرَاذِلُنَا بَادِيَ الرَّأْيِ وَ مَا نَرَىٰ لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا مِن فَضْلٍ بَلْ نَظُنُّكُمْ كَٰذِبِينَ


compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/24?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 2 :  الملوا   with an extra Waw و between the letter Laam and the letter Alif

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma hatha illa basharun mithlukum yureedu an yatafaddala AAalaykum walaw shaa Allahu laanzala mala-ikatan ma samiAAna bihatha fee aba-ina al-awwaleena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَؤُا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا هَٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتَفَضَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ لَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنزَلَ مَلَٰئِكَةً مَّا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِي ءَابَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

likewise perhaps study/read carefully less counting stuff you'll see it is correct.
qur'an to write "they" trailing alif dropped insert وا (done for numerous words).

https://free-minds.org/quran/A/23#24

https://quran.com/23/24?translations=20

11:27 فقال so said الملا the council of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of من from قومه folk his
23:24 فقال so said الملوا the council they of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of
23:33 وقال and said الملا the council of من from قومه folk his الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of





peace!

ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #94 on: September 30, 2018, 02:50:56 AM »

Salaam,



likewise perhaps study/read carefully less counting stuff you'll see it is correct.
qur'an to write "they" trailing alif dropped insert وا (done for numerous words).

https://free-minds.org/quran/A/23#24

https://quran.com/23/24?translations=20

11:27 فقال so said الملا the council of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of من from قومه folk his
23:24 فقال so said الملوا the council they of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of
23:33 وقال and said الملا the council of من from قومه folk his الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of




For me the current manuscript is correct, preserved by God, and the particular spelling is intended for a purpose:


I think that the particular spelling of some words in the Quran we have today is not inconsistent,  it is for a purpose  and in time the purpose will be revealed by God.
 

Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.

There is no logique in saying that the scribes changed the spelling of the word Ibraheem only in chapter 2 and not in the rest of the Quran, they must have had a source for these particular spellings.

Cautious when saying "inconsistent" about the current manuscript especially  when in condradiction with Quran veses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.


It was your claim about  inconsistencies:


it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.





Why do you consider this with an extra alif NOT consistent:

it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of


These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting


and consider this with an extra Waw consistent:
Salaam,




Another example of what you consider " inconsistent" from what you consider "consistent oldest manuscripts":

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/27?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 7 :  الملا

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma naraka illa basharan mithlana wama naraka ittabaAAaka illa allatheena hum arathiluna badiya alrra/yi wama nara lakum AAalayna min fadlin bal nathunnukum kathibeena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَأُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا نَرَىٰكَ إِلَّا بَشَرًا مِّثْلَنَا وَ مَا نَرَىٰكَ اتَّبَعَكَ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ هُمْ أَرَاذِلُنَا بَادِيَ الرَّأْيِ وَ مَا نَرَىٰ لَكُمْ عَلَيْنَا مِن فَضْلٍ بَلْ نَظُنُّكُمْ كَٰذِبِينَ

So said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved from his people, "Not we see you but a man like us, and not we see you followed [you] except those who [they] (are) the lowest of us immature in opinion. And not we see in you over us any merit; nay, we think you (are) liars."


compare to:

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/24?handschrift=163

Manuscript line 2 :  الملوا   with an extra Waw و between the letter Laam and the letter Alif

Faqala almalao allatheena kafaroo min qawmihi ma hatha illa basharun mithlukum yureedu an yatafaddala AAalaykum walaw shaa Allahu laanzala mala-ikatan ma samiAAna bihatha fee aba-ina al-awwaleena

فَقَالَ الْمَلَؤُا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَوْمِهِ مَا هَٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُرِيدُ أَن يَتَفَضَّلَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَ لَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَأَنزَلَ مَلَٰئِكَةً مَّا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِي ءَابَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ

But said the chiefs (of) those who disbelieved among his people, "This is not but a man like you, he wishes to assert (his) superiority over you, and if Allah had willed surely He (would have) sent down Angels. Not we heard of this from our forefathers.



I believe that the current manuscript with the particular spelling of some words is the same as the original manuscript.
And that in some other manuscripts some of this particular spelling was lost by some scribes thinking that the same words should be spelled the same way,
not aware that this particular spelling was intended for a purpose.
Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي  in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



72:28 
لِيَعْلَمَ أَن قَدْ أَبْلَغُوا رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَأَحَاطَ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ وَأَحْصَى كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عَدَدًا

LiyaAAlama an qad ablaghoo risalati rabbihim waahata bima ladayhim waahsa kulla shayin AAadadan

That He may make evident that indeed, they have conveyed (the) Messages (of) their Lord; and He has encompassed what (is) with them and He takes account (of) all things (in) number."


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #95 on: September 30, 2018, 09:24:32 AM »
For me the current manuscript is correct, preserved by God, and the particular spelling is intended for a purpose:
and consider this with an extra Waw consistent:


72:28 
لِيَعْلَمَ أَن قَدْ أَبْلَغُوا رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَأَحَاطَ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ وَأَحْصَى كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عَدَدًا

peace, not sure which quran (or from which numerology site) you are using since current and oldest manuscripts spell it correctly and grammatically etc., الملوا already explained and you ignore.

https://free-minds.org/quran/A/23#24

https://quran.com/23/24?translations=20

11:27 فقال so said الملا the council of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of من from قومه folk his
23:24 فقال so said الملوا the council they of الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of
23:33 وقال and said الملا the council of من from قومه folk his الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of


Those infatuated with number want to use simpleton numerology/mindless counting to change the text and ignore and/or override the preserved record from close to the time of revelation— another example.






have nice life!



ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2018, 06:38:43 AM »
Salaam,


When you say : " current manuscript/s  not consistent ".


it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 الأمثال in current manuscript/s and should be...

13:17 ... ىضرب yaḍribu/striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:25 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
14:45 ... وضربنا waḍarabnā/and strike we of لكم for you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
16:74 فلا so not تضربوا taḍribū/thou strike ye of لله to god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
17:48 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of


These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

25:9 انظر observe كىف how ضربوا ḍarabū/strike they of لك to you الامثل l-amthāla/the examples فضلوا so astray they of فلا so not ىستطىعون capable being سبىلا path of
24:35 ... وىضرب wayaḍribu/and striketh الله the god الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
25:39 ... ضربنا ḍarabnā/strike we of له to him الامثل l-amthāla/the examples
29:43 وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind وما and not ىعقلها understand them الا except العالمون the knowing
59:21 ... وتلك and those الامثل l-amthālu/the examples نضربها naḍribuhā/we strike them للناس to the humankind لعلهم perhaps they ىتفكرون reflecting


Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3:182 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلام biẓallāmin/in darkness (with alif) للعبىد to the devotees’

8:51 ذلك such بما in what قدمت have set forth اىدىكم hands yours وان and that الله the god لىس not is بظلم biẓallāmin/in darkness (no alif?) للعبىد to the devotees’



Then you have to come up with a logical explanation for this:

15:9    Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

41:41   Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
41:42   Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

56:77   Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
56:78   In a Book well-guarded

72:28   So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them, and He has counted everything in numbers.

85:21   Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
85:22   In a Tablet, Guarded.



Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2018, 08:33:06 PM »
Then you have to come up with a logical explanation for this:

15:9    Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

41:41   Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
41:42   Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

56:77   Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
56:78   In a Book well-guarded

72:28   So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them, and He has counted everything in numbers.

85:21   Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
85:22   In a Tablet, Guarded.

Peace not about guarding text which anyone can change, edit, delete, etc. at any time or guarding text “before it” is written (irrational!) rather “the reminder” does not contain falsehood “before it” i.e. pertaining to prior events mentioned and neither future events “behind it” foretold to occur.

Likewise not about infactuation with certain “number/s” which are counteless.

92 naturally occurring elements
2.98 * (10^4) = 29,800 meters/sec speed of the earth in orbit floating around the sun
2 * (10^5) = 200,000 meters/sec speed solar system in orbit around milky way galaxy

21:30-33 اولم do they not ىر see الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ان anna (i.e. “an inna”/that indeed) السموت the heavens والارض and the land كانتا be dual رتقا sewn of ففتقناهما so ripped we them dual وجعلنا and made we of من from الما the water كل each شى thing حى live افلا then so not ىومنون believing وجعلنا and made we of فى in الارض the land روسى firm peaks ان that تمىد shake بهم with them وجعلنا and made we of فىها therein فجاجا ravine of سبلا paths of لعلهم perhaps they ىهتدون guided being  وجعلنا and made we of السما the heaven/sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard of وهم and they عن about اىتها signs its معرضون away turning وهو and he الذى the one خلقا creation of للىل the night والنهار and the daytime والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. all prior mentioned above) فى in فلك vessel ىسبحون sailing/floating




ibn_a

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Re: Hafs or Warsh
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2018, 08:46:17 AM »
Salaam,


Peace not about guarding text which anyone can change, edit, delete, etc. at any time or guarding text “before it” is written (irrational!) rather “the reminder” does not contain falsehood “before it” i.e. pertaining to prior events mentioned and neither future events “behind it” foretold to occur.

Likewise not about infactuation with certain “number/s” which are counteless.

- Other translations for " بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ   bayni yadayhi  ":   before it  / openly  / presently

- Doesn't the red text contradict the blue text ?
If no certainty about the preservation of the text, how to be certain about the events it mentions ? ( change, edit, delete, etc.)



Likewise not about infactuation with certain “number/s” which are counteless.

92 naturally occurring elements
2.98 * (10^4) = 29,800 meters/sec speed of the earth in orbit floating around the sun
2 * (10^5) = 200,000 meters/sec speed solar system in orbit around milky way galaxy

21:30-33 اولم do they not ىر see الذىن the ones كفروا reject they of ان anna (i.e. “an inna”/that indeed) السموت the heavens والارض and the land كانتا be dual رتقا sewn of ففتقناهما so ripped we them dual وجعلنا and made we of من from الما the water كل each شى thing حى live افلا then so not ىومنون believing وجعلنا and made we of فى in الارض the land روسى firm peaks ان that تمىد shake بهم with them وجعلنا and made we of فىها therein فجاجا ravine of سبلا paths of لعلهم perhaps they ىهتدون guided being  وجعلنا and made we of السما the heaven/sky سقفا roof of محفوظا safeguard of وهم and they عن about اىتها signs its معرضون away turning وهو and he الذى the one خلقا creation of للىل the night والنهار and the daytime والشمس and the sun والقمر and the moon كل each (i.e. all prior mentioned above) فى in فلك vessel ىسبحون sailing/floating


It would be more relevant to share your translation of these verses:

15:9    Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wa-inna lahu lahafithoona

41:41   Inna allatheena kafaroo bialththikri lamma jaahum wa-innahu lakitabun AAazeezun.
41:42   La ya teehi albatilu min bayni yadayhi wala min khalfihi tanzeelun min hakeemin hameedin

56:77   Innahu laqur-anun kareemun,
56:78   Fee kitabin maknoonin.

72:28   LiyaAAlama an qad ablaghoo risalati rabbihim waahata bima ladayhim waahsa kulla shayin AAadadan.

85:21   Bal huwa qur-anun majeedun,
85:22   Fee lawhin mahfoothin.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.