The bible corrupted?

[Faith]

Anyways, i have a question for you Huruf. How can we follow the Quran when it said:

An English translation of the Quran 5:68 Say: "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

How can God tell us to uphold the Tora and the Gospel? How can you say it is changed? Do you really want to be cursed? How can God tell us to uphold them? There must be a Tora and Gospel if you want to uphold it. Why don't you stop following those people who say that they are changed. You have to read the Quran. The Quran itself is enough as an evidence that there is a Tora and that there is an Injeel and that there is a Zabur. De Quran told us to believe in them, 2:285, the Quran told us that they are from God, 3:3, really, wake up, and stop following those people and start doing your research.

Peace,
Verse 5:68 - People of the Book = Jews and Christians

5:77 - Say: "O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system other than the truth, and do not follow the desires of a people who have been misguided before, and they misguide many; and they strayed from the right path."

What system did the People of the Book overstep?
5:72 - Rejecters indeed are those who have said: "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." And the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."

5:73 - Rejecters indeed are those who have said: "God is third of three!" There is no god except One God. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.

Not all People of the Book are rejecters.
3:113 - They are not all the same, from the people of the Book are a nation that is upright; they recite the revelations of God during the night hours and they prostrate.
3:114 - They believe in God and the Last Day and order kindness and prohibit vice, and they hasten in goodness; these are of the good doers.

If we can come to mutual understanding with the People of the Book, then that is best.
3:64 - Say: "O people of the Book, let us come to a mutual understanding between us and between you; that we serve none except God, and that we do not set up anything with Him, and that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God." If they turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we have submitted."

29:46 - And do not argue with the people of the Book except in that which is better; except for those who are wicked among them; and say: "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we submit."

God knows best.

[Aries]

An English translation of the Quran 5:68 Say: "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

How can they uphold the Injeel if you claim there is none?

Peace,

I never said there is no Injeel, I said that imo, according to Quran Gospel can not be Injeel.

People are upholding the chapters Matthew up until Revelation for more then 2000 years.

2:170 When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?

When the Quran was Revealed, it was that same Injeel that was being uphold, like the one we have now.

Can you prove Injeel is Gospel and Isa is Jesus? And in any case Quran says to you what you need to know about Isa and the Injeel, whatever else you are adding to the information given in it, you are risking to be misled.

Jesus died for three days, God woke the Messiah from hes death after three days, read the Injeel, he was alive, and sent the Apostels with the Injeel to humanity.

1. No, the apostles wrote the Gospels, and not only the apostles wrote about Jesus, there are like hundreds of myths about him and not precisely from Israel. Jesus did not write anything either came up with anything, he did not send any Injeel to human kind.

I would appreciate if you respect Quran quoting, because in it you will understand that GOD taught Isa the Injeel in order to guide by His grace, so alhamdulillah! There is no savior Jesus sending mercies to human kind, the One God is who sent His Mercy upon Isa. Are you a hidden Christian on the forum?  Not because of the christian belief, but because of the "hidden" of it 

2. There is not non-Christian historical evidence about any Jesus until the 2nd century.

3, I can not read the Injeel, how can you? 

Do not say that he is death. He is alive, in heaven, with God. He is the Messiah, and we have just 1 Messiah. God haves different plans for us.

Please quote full verse
4:157 And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

God knows best

[Man of Faith]

But there are historical records of a Muhammed, and they say he was a ruthless warmonger. It fits the portrayal of Muhammed according to so-called hadith. And Muhammed according to (the mainstream interpretation of) Quran is not a saint either.

And historical records do seldom mention a person who was considered a fool and not acknowledged by the authorities. There is a reason why only certain sources mention Jesus besides Quran and that is because he was not popular among religious leaders. Jesus had a small group of followers and they were heavily persecuted. While Jesus is not mentioned in any "historical records", those who followed him and were heavily persecuted has a thorough documentation associated with them. Look at it this way, many people tried to silence the real Jesus or they abused his words for their own agenda, e.g making a God out of him to be worshiped.

Plus you can also consider what is a historical record.

However, the writings you find in the Bible called Evangelium/Gospel are true records of the real Jesus. Albeit not written by Jesus, it displays quotes of what he said, but the translation is often miserable. The Injeel is not relating to a book but the teachings themselves. Example: The saying "I am in the father and the father is in me" is supposed to say in Aramaic "The I (or self) is in the Originator and the Originator is in the I (the self)". It follows the expressed dynamics of God in the Torah: "I am who I am". Everyone should be like him and he did not say he was anyone exclusive and even the poorly translated texts mention that Jesus said: "You will all be children of the father". This is like saying you have the spirit of God with/in you.

It was those who Jesus opposed who invented the religion Islam. By supporting the mainstream interpretation of Quran and Islam, you indirectly support them and their sect with strange practices.

Quran is not false and a fake, but it is very poorly interpreted and translated by the likes of those who opposed Jesus and they could barely understand the script and that is what you people are following.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel

[good logic]

Peace Man Of Faith.

I would like to make a small comment on what you say here,quote:

But there are historical records of a Muhammed, and they say he was a ruthless warmonger. It fits the portrayal of Muhammed according to so-called hadith. And Muhammed according to (the mainstream interpretation of) Quran is not a saint either.

Do you believe the above? Why?
If you do,is it because it suit you and your agenda ?
I thought you use your instinct and logic and analyse what it has been recorded/said ?

Also you need to give him your take /translation if you wish to highlight a correction.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Aries]

I disagree with a lot of your current understanding of the Injeel and Quran.

Do you want to learn the Injeel and interpretate the Quran in a better way?

Have you found any evidence for this claim of yours? And what is wrong with follow the Messih Isa ibnu Maryam and the Injeel? Have you not read the Quran in 5:68 and in 5:47?

a)  57:27

(...) And We sent Isa, son of Maryam, and We gave him the Injeel (...)

Jesus did not write anything neither came up with any scripture, all writings about him are third party's handwriting and post mortem



b) 57:100 God said: "O Isa, son of Maryam, recall My blessings upon you and your mother, that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and middle age, and I taught you the Book and the wisdom, and the Taurat, and the Injeel

So Jesus was taught a book written by other people after his death.

c) Since I can recall, you won't find any verse in Quran affirming Injeel is a book (correct me if I am wrong)



According to Quran the known Gospel(s) CAN NOT BE what Quran calls INJEEL, imo

God bless you all 

[hawk99]

Peace,

  we complain and rightfully so that the Quran has some
mistranslations even though we have the Arabic to support it!
Based on the above why and how would one come to the conclusion
that the bible has not been corrupted.     


                           

[Faith]

The Quran is a Book and we are people.

We also are now called the people of the Book.

That is what also happened with the Christians when they received the Injeel.

That is what also happened with the followers of the Tora and Zabur when they received the Books and Prophets.

5:48   - And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, affirming what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so race to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

3:99   - Say: "O people of the Book, why do you repel from the path of God those who believe? You wish to twist it while you are witnesses. And God is not unaware of what you do."
3:100 - O you who believe, if you obey a group of those who received the Book they will turn you after your belief into rejecters!

Peace.

[Man of Faith]

Peace Man Of Faith.

I would like to make a small comment on what you say here,quote:

But there are historical records of a Muhammed, and they say he was a ruthless warmonger. It fits the portrayal of Muhammed according to so-called hadith. And Muhammed according to (the mainstream interpretation of) Quran is not a saint either.

Do you believe the above? Why?
If you do,is it because it suit you and your agenda ?
I thought you use your instinct and logic and analyse what it has been recorded/said ?

Also you need to give him your take /translation if you wish to highlight a correction.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Of course I take all input into consideration, this is highly logical for an intelligent person. There are indications Muhammed decreed that an invasion force should attack villages, apparently defenseless, and then wreak havoc there. This is without even counting any hadith record. The record of the opponents of Muhammed says that the conquerors were there on behalf of Muhammed "the prophet".

In many ways the sect Islam was forced upon the defeated region.

You cannot take Quran for a word without considering all the details surrounding it. Objective reflection on Quran and you see the alleged God is very primitive and desires what a common man desire in general, like an image of man.

Concerning the Arabic I will not comment because the administration of this forum is trigger-happy to their interpretation of "baseless claims" and I only lay forth what Quran says according to people in general.

But I am not required to offer a correction to the translation you have and I will not debate that aspect of Quran on this forum.

Plus, I would not use my bestial instinct in assessing all the information surrounding Quran and God. That would be a mistake. That would just leave me to the instinctive awe of a god of delusion, a mindless projection of God. That leads towards Paganism.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel

[good logic]

Peace Man Of Faith.

I disagree with what you say here about Mohammed,quote:

There are indications Muhammed decreed that an invasion force should attack villages, apparently defenseless, and then wreak havoc there. This is without even counting any hadith record. The record of the opponents of Muhammed says that the conquerors were there on behalf of Muhammed "the prophet"

For at least 20 odd years after Mohammed ,there was no  compulsion in deen.
History investigation,in my opinion, will confirm for us that the political establishment after the civil war and the massacre of most of Mohammed s family,  i.e When  Traditional Islam was born,is the culprit of all the made up history about what people know as Islam today and the birth of all the fabrications that you call sectarians.

According to my study of Qoran ,Mohammed was of "Khulukan Adhim" -Good peaceful/moral human.
What you describe in your comments are lies about Mohammed and in his name.
My view brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Anoushirvan]

But there are historical records of a Muhammed, and they say he was a ruthless warmonger. It fits the portrayal of Muhammed according to so-called hadith. And Muhammed according to (the mainstream interpretation of) Quran is not a saint either.

E.g., this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragment_on_the_Arab_Conquests

In January {the people of}[2] Ḥomṣ took the word for their lives[3] and many villages were ravaged by the killing of {the Arabs of} Muhammad[4] and many people were slain and {taken} prisoner from Galilee as far as Beth?[5]
    On the tw{enty-six}th of May the Saq{īlā}ra went {?} from the vicinity of Ḥomṣ and the Romans chased them {?}
    On the tenth {of August} the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus {and there were killed} many {people}, some ten thousand. And at the turn {of the ye}ar the Romans came. On the twentieth of August in the year n{ine hundred and forty-}seven there gathered in Gabitha {a multitude of} the Romans, and many people {of the R}omans were kil{led}, {s}ome fifty thousand.[6]

Dated around 636 AD.

The issue is that is not known whether the Muhammad in question (more exactly MHMT in Syriac, the language of the Fragment of Arab Conquest) was actually the messenger of Qur'an or not.
I believe it is not the same person, but I have no proof either.