Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen

[uq]

I have 4 main points to make:

1. The causality of homosexuality has no bearing on its predicament of legality or illegality in the Dīn, whatsoever. I strongly suggest that if we wish to continue the discussion of its causality, then we should do so in a separate thread. The title of this thread clearly relates to the predicament of homosexuality as it relates to the Dīn.

2. I am strongly of the conviction that if something is not prohibited in the Quran then it must be assumed to be lawful. I form this conviction on the numerous verses that condemn "he who imputes a lie to God." (See 3:94, 6:21, 6:94, 6:144, 7:37 and many more).

3. There is no explicit prohibition against homosexuality in the Quran issued by God in the first person.

4. Notwithstanding the fact stated in point 3, there are still statements in the Quran (or absence of statements) that leave me with a lingering suspicion of the outright legality of homosexuality. I will summarise my position in the following points:

• Although I agree with the view that messengers were susceptible to error, whenever they do err, their error is marked out as being wrong and God addresses it; this is not the case with Lūṭ's condemnation of homosexuality.
• The word الخبائث (stated by God in the first person) may be suggestive of homosexuality in 21:74 as it relates to the practice of the people of Lūṭ, and in 7:157 الخبائث are stated as being prohibited. I should make it clear that there is no conclusive link between the clause كانت تعمل الخبائث Was wont to practice abominable acts and homosexuality, I merely suggest the existence of a link.
• Lūṭ did not "offer" his daughters to his people, instead, he merely indicated their existence; to this end, the Quran quotes Lūṭ as using the word هؤلاء in 11:78 and 15:71. There is a clear linguistic difference between هؤلاء بناتى These are my daughters and هاكم بناتى Here! Take my daughters: the prior is a demonstrative sentence, the latter imperative. It is important that we do not muddy the meanings of the text of the Quran.
• The argument that "what is beyond that" in 4:24 includes in its scope males is refuted. One cannot link an unrelated pattern to the pattern found in 4:23. That is to say, the pattern found in 4:23 relates to females, and the addressees are assumed to be men, how then do we relate males to the sequence of females mentioned in the verse? If this rule didn't hold fast, then one could make the argument, using the same principles, that one's male relatives have not been prohibited in marriage based on the fact that this verse does not mention them, and this then restricts the scope of 4:23 to female incest, whereas male incest, using this logic, is permissible. So I disagree with the notion that "what is beyond that" in 4:24 includes males (related or unrelated) in its scope.
• In 54:37 we read that the people of Lūṭ were punished as a direct result of their having enticed his guests: ولقد راودوه عن ضيفه فطمسنا أعينهم فذوقوا عذابى ونذر And verily by [God], they had enticed him to turn from his guests, so we blinded them; taste My punishment and My warnings! The reader is left to ponder the consequence of this verse.
• The phrase أتأتون الرجال شهوةً من دون النساء means (rough translation) Will you indeed lie with men out of lust to the exclusion of women? This is a statement attributed to Lūṭ in 7:81. I wanted to make its meaning clear as there seemed to be some confusion regarding its meaning.
• Even still, all provisions relating to marriage, dowry, divorce, children, nursing children and inheritance speak within the context of a man-woman relationship. The lack of provisions relating to homosexual marriage, dowry, divorce etc. leaves homosexuals wanting for guidance from God.

To sum up, although God has issued no explicit prohibition against homosexuality, the tone of the Quran, as far as I can see, towards homosexuality is certainly not one of complete impassivity, and tends to lean towards considering it a sin.

The onus would lie on each individual to disimpassion their minds and to objectively assess the verses and pass his or her judgment on the matter.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all 

Thank you for the quality of your post, uq. My comments (within quote) are in red.

...

• Although I agree with the view that messengers were susceptible to error, whenever they do err, their error is marked out as being wrong and God addresses it; this is not the case with Lūṭ's condemnation of homosexuality.

Lot (Peace upon all Prophets) said that the people did an evil not seen before. Since he wasn?t addressed as being wrong, and homosexual acts in organized societies existed long before the people of Lot, this indicates that homosexual acts are not the main issue here.

• The argument that "what is beyond that" in 4:24 includes in its scope males is refuted. One cannot link an unrelated pattern to the pattern found in 4:23. That is to say, the pattern found in 4:23 relates to females, and the addressees are assumed to be men, how then do we relate males to the sequence of females mentioned in the verse? If this rule didn't hold fast, then one could make the argument, using the same principles, that one's male relatives have not been prohibited in marriage based on the fact that this verse does not mention them, and this then restricts the scope of 4:23 to female incest, whereas male incest, using this logic, is permissible. So I disagree with the notion that "what is beyond that" in 4:24 includes males (related or unrelated) in its scope.

Refuted is a strong statement--maybe argued/disputed is meant? If one is being absolute in linking unrelated patterns, it could be argued that any society other than the people of Lot is a unique pattern and unrelated to the statements made by the Prophet Lot. It can be one way or the other, but not both at the same time.

Are same-sex incest among consenting adults even a common issue, or one that needs societal scrutiny? Biological defects in offspring could not be an issue, because biological offspring wouldn't be possible. Would a consenting woman of age be forbidden from marrying her widowed mother under 4:23--or would it not apply because (under some understandings) it is addressed solely to men?

• In 54:37 we read that the people of Lūṭ were punished as a direct result of their having enticed his guests: ولقد راودوه عن ضيفه فطمسنا أعينهم فذوقوا عذابى ونذر And verily by [God], they had enticed him to turn from his guests, so we blinded them; taste My punishment and My warnings! The reader is left to ponder the consequence of this verse.

Was Lot's wife homosexual? She was of the doomed, as were other women and children. The people also challenged the Almighty in 29:29...

29:29 "You approach the males, and you sever the way, and you bring all vice into your place." But the only response from his people was to say: "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"

• The phrase أتأتون الرجال شهوةً من دون النساء means (rough translation) Will you indeed lie with men out of lust to the exclusion of women? This is a statement attributed to Lūṭ in 7:81. I wanted to make its meaning clear as there seemed to be some confusion regarding its meaning.

Is it okay to lie with (or attempt to lie with) women out of lust? Whether in lustful fornication or by excluding their spouses in adulterous lust, the men were surely in the wrong.

• Even still, all provisions relating to marriage, dowry, divorce, children, nursing children and inheritance speak within the context of a man-woman relationship. The lack of provisions relating to homosexual marriage, dowry, divorce etc. leaves homosexuals wanting for guidance from God.

The provisions provide protections that may not be necessary within a same sex relationship--which may be two women or two men.

To sum up, although God has issued no explicit prohibition against homosexuality, the tone of the Quran, as far as I can see, towards homosexuality is certainly not one of complete impassivity, and tends to lean towards considering it a sin.

The onus would lie on each individual to disimpassion their minds and to objectively assess the verses and pass his or her judgment on the matter.

If one thinks a thing distasteful (and it is not required ) then avoid it for oneself. Others may not find the same thing distasteful, and we shouldn't be unpleasant or unjust because of a differing of opinion.

Avoiding being unpleasant to others isn't the same as promoting any viewpoint/understanding, and being nasty to others is incompatible with the deen.

ALLAH knows best.

~Abdul-Hadi

[HP_TECH]

Greetings and Peace, all 

Avoiding being unpleasant to others isn't the same as promoting any viewpoint/understanding, and being nasty to others is incompatible with the deen.

ALLAH knows best.

~Abdul-Hadi

Fair enough, but Allah says that believers are merciful towards one another and stern against the disbelievers. We are encouraged to be firm against the disbelievers.
The believers enjoin good and forbid from the wrongdoing.

Therefore if it is clearly expressed in The Reading that homosexual acts are punishable and a prophet is repeatedly given (by Allah) dialogue condemning it and unfaced individuals on the internet oppose what reason and faith guide to, it is inevitable for those of Iman and higher interpreting/reading/ knowledge capability to oppose you with firmness and distaste.

Is it not possible then that the unpleasantness you are receiving is a result of your wrongdoing in supporting a sin or propagating that transgression is permissible, while twisting your own logic and reasoning in search for loopholes?

Believers don't like that and they are going to be firm against wrongdoing like they are commanded.

As kindly as this can be said I advise that YOU should be more concerned with propagating ideas that are incompatible with the deen rather than the few believers responding appropriately(firmly) against those propagating wrongdoing.


PS give me a little more time I should be a little free tomorrow perhaps[/list]

[imrankhawaja]

sometimes i did not understand the level of intelligence of some folks...

lets do it very simple way ..

a deed what is not restricted by God should not be in the catagory of wrong doing at first place...

example the nation of lot was involve in these wrong doings
1 killing
2 stealing/robbing/banditing
3 rape
4 approaching men instead of women...

now if the nation get punished by God ... the 4th wrong doing should not be there at first place... if its there then one of the reason of their punishment is also homsexulity...

or a killer /rapist/ robber will argue on same grounds that see the nation get killed due to homosex so we are allow to do other 3 options... 

why would a messenger of God  forbid somebody if its not bad infront of God...? 

[imrankhawaja]

Being prejudiced can affect the sight.

I have a heterosexual related question for you.

How will you feel when you catch your heterosexual wife having sex with another man in front of your eyes?

first of all topic here is LGBT

second thing i also ask lot of questions from you and you did not answer them yet?

but i will give you answer anyway becoz i never run away from questions ... i like giving answers

my answer  i will feel same how you will feel when you catch having your wife sex with one person or 5 person at the same time ...
and thats a thing that lead marriage to end ... in most of the cases
so she get punished by law 100 lashes ...
and its becoz God set the rules ... that no women cheat her husband ..same apply to husband...

now you tell me what punishment according to quran should be given to same sex spouses? if they are cheating ..

ok lets assume you are a bisexual...
what rules you will set  for yourself...
as far cheating with women/wife concerned the set rules are there
but what if you also cheat on your boyfriend and have sex with another boy out of lust (what is your punishment)?
or if your marriage come to an end how would your son feel that his father is gay... (?)
and if you still think bisexual is not harmless then even athiest is harmless should we consider him same as we consider beleiver ?

and if you dnt find answer in quran its mean having sex with same sex gender/ animals/ trees/ is invalid thats why rules are not there... by the way i hope you also have not any problem to do sex with animals becoz its also absent in quran...?
or you can give a theory that .. we can even kill animal so why not sex? hahahaha isnt it..

and this post answers still pending?

which case ? that homosex is allowed ?

by the way u did not provide any evidence so far so how you are 100 % sure?

and last question .. is it ok to be 100 % sure on something on wishful thinking?   

[hawk99]

3. There is no explicit prohibition against homosexuality in the Quran issued by God in the first person.

This is where the problem lies.  Allah does not say no or yes
to homosexual relationships, therefore we can deduce what we
consider to be what's best albeit not law. There are no provisions
for a homosexual marriage like dowry and divorce for homosexuals.
Therefore I conclude that these relationships are outside of the deen
and secular laws are left to determine their place in society.


                                 

[Bender]

first of all topic here is LGBT

Yes you are right.

second thing i also ask lot of questions from you and you did not answer them yet?

This is also true.
But I have an excuse for this one.
Sometimes you ask to much questions, like in this post. I ask you 1 question, you fire like 10 questions back.
Sometimes I don't understand your questions.
Sometimes I can't answer your questions.
Sometimes your questions are way off topic answering them will lead only to more off topic.
Sometimes I have other things to do, which are also important for me.
I hope you will accept my excuses.

I will answer all your questions this time to make up with you.

but i will give you answer anyway becoz i never run away from questions ... i like giving answers
my answer  i will feel same how you will feel when you catch having your wife sex with one person or 5 person at the same time ...
and thats a thing that lead marriage to end ... in most of the cases
so she get punished by law 100 lashes ...
and its becoz God set the rules ... that no women cheat her husband ..same apply to husband...

now you tell me what punishment according to quran should be given to same sex spouses? if they are cheating ..

I assume you got the 100 lashes from 24:2
So if we take that interpretation as valid then zani homosexuals get also 100 lashes, unless you can proof for me that the term zani is exclusively for heterosexuals.

ok lets assume you are a bisexual...
what rules you will set  for yourself...

Same rules as I have set now for myself.

as far cheating with women/wife concerned the set rules are there
but what if you also cheat on your boyfriend and have sex with another boy out of lust (what is your punishment)?

same punishment for me as if I was cheating with another woman.

or if your marriage come to an end how would your son feel that his father is gay... (?)

This is one of the questions I can not answer. I sometimes don't even know how I feel myself, how could I ever know how my son would feel if I was a gaydad whos marriage came to an end.
These kind of questions are to difficult for me to answer, maybe you know how other people feel but I don't.;

and if you still think bisexual is not harmless then even athiest is harmless should we consider him same as we consider beleiver ?

atheism here is a bit off topic no?
I consider myself a believer but I know (means I know them for real) some atheists who are for sure better than me.
I leave the judging of people for they believes, tastes, race, etc to God, it's not my business.

and if you dnt find answer in quran its mean having sex with same sex gender/ animals/ trees/ is invalid thats why rules are not there...

Is not LGBT related.
If you don't find any answers to your questions in the quran than maybe you have to search better.

by the way i hope you also have not any problem to do sex with animals becoz its also absent in quran...?

Is not LGBT related.
But no thank you, I have no desire to have sex with animals. Besides that I don't have any desire for such acts, God also forbids that for me.

or you can give a theory that .. we can even kill animal so why not sex? hahahaha isnt it..

Is not LGBT related.
And NO you can not kill an animal unjustified.
As long as you and your partner are ok with what you 2 do together and don't harm others (others = all living creatures) it's totally ok with me, it's not of my business, God will be your judge.

and this post answers still pending?

No it was not pending, I already answered similar questions to Adem. But I will answer them again.

which case ? that homosex is allowed ?
See my previous posts to see which case, I have already explained my point of view several times.

by the way u did not provide any evidence so far so how you are 100 % sure?
see my answer to Adem, he had a similar question

and last question .. is it ok to be 100 % sure on something on wishful thinking?
There is nothing to gain or whatsoever for me.

I hope I did not forget a question, and I hope you will forgive me next time when I don't answer every question, it's a bit time consuming and boring to reply to every question.

I also had one question for you, Adem, Rekkd and A Submitter. Maybe you missed it. It seems they had/have some trouble with it, but since you like to give answers I think it will be no problem for you.
On page 22 I had 2 quran verses I was interested in your opinion on the red parts. If you do not want to answer that question then I understand, it's ok.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all 

Fair enough, but Allah says that believers are merciful towards one another and stern against the disbelievers. We are encouraged to be firm against the disbelievers.
The believers enjoin good and forbid from the wrongdoing.

Therefore if it is clearly expressed in The Reading that homosexual acts are punishable and a prophet is repeatedly given (by Allah) dialogue condemning it and unfaced individuals on the internet oppose what reason and faith guide to, it is inevitable for those of Iman and higher interpreting/reading/ knowledge capability to oppose you with firmness and distaste.

Is it not possible then that the unpleasantness you are receiving is a result of your wrongdoing in supporting a sin or propagating that transgression is permissible, while twisting your own logic and reasoning in search for loopholes?

Believers don't like that and they are going to be firm against wrongdoing like they are commanded.

As kindly as this can be said I advise that YOU should be more concerned with propagating ideas that are incompatible with the deen rather than the few believers responding appropriately(firmly) against those propagating wrongdoing.


PS give me a little more time I should be a little free tomorrow perhaps[/list]

@HP_TECH

IF it were expressed in the Qur'an that homosexuals are disbelievers, and-it-is-not-expressed-despite-your-desires, then believers would be expected to treat homosexuals with firmness. Even then, not without justice and not with nastiness. Those who create lies about ALLAH will not be successful! 

I am receiving no unpleasantness, except in what should be reasoned dialogue on this forum, from some of those who claim to be believers. Truly, ALLAH knows best who is a believer and who is not. Saying that I support a sin is nastiness, saying that I propogate that transgression is permissable is nastiness, claiming that I twist logic is nastiness, and calling reasoning and individual understanding a "search for loopholes" is disrespectful as well. If you are a believer, then why do you exhibit nastiness and disrespect, and why do you attribute lies to ALLAH? 

You will follow your desires, ISA. Enjoy this life!

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.



~Abdul-Hadi

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all

I just found an interesting article that pertains to this topic.

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-be-a-Muslim-and-gay

Excerpt from article:

***

With that said, Allah also makes it very clear in Quran 5:48 and 13:38-9 that the commandments of previous Prophets do not apply to Muslims unless Allah explicitly says so.

... Do not follow their whims, which deviate from the truth that has come to you. We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about. Quran 5:48

We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and offspring; no messenger was given the power to produce a miracle except with God?s permission. There was a Scripture for every age: God erases or confirms whatever He will, and the source of Scripture is with Him. Quran 13:38-39

So when Allah mentions that previous Prophets ordered fasting, he makes a special point of clarifying that the order also applies to Muslims:

You who believe, fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may be mindful of God. Quran 2:183

Allah never reinforces Lot's comment about homosexuality in this way. Instead, Allah explains that the story of Lot and other Prophets are provided to highlight how previous nations ignored their messengers as the people of Mecca were ignoring Muhammad. Allah is reassuring Muhammad that his treatment by the Meccans is not unique and part of Allah's divine plan to warn the Meccans about the Day of Judgment:

We have told you [Prophet Muhammad] the stories of those towns: messengers came to them, and clear signs, but they would not believe in what they had already rejected?in this way God seals the hearts of disbelievers. We found that most of them did not honor their commitments; We found that most of them were defiant. Quran 7:101-102

But We lead on those who reject Our messages, step by step, without them realizing it: I will give them respite, but My plan is sure. Has it not occurred to them that their companion [Prophet Muhammad] is not mad but is giving clear warning? Have they not contemplated the realm of the heavens and earth and all that God created, and that the end of their time might be near? What [other revelation] will they believe in if they do not believe in this? Quran 7:182-185

***

An interesting perspective. I'll need to carefully consider it before accepting or rejecting it. Any thoughts, especially on the excerpted part?

ALLAH knows best.



~Abdul-Hadi

[Adem]

Two different parties getting two different penalties for committing the same hideous/criminal act

والتى ياتين الفحشة من نسائكم

And those (fem.) who commit 'fahichah' AMONG YOUR WOMEN, penalty X as follows...

والذان ياتينها منكم

And the two (masc.) who commit IT AMONG YOU [=MEN], penalty Y as follows...

Those who promote sodomy, imposing their nihilistic bias upon the clear textus

Please do explain the passages above, logically, if ye can reason. Whom is ALLAH convicting (in 4:15 and 16) ?