Author Topic: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?  (Read 5285 times)

good logic

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2020, 03:15:13 AM »
It seems many want to interpret Qoran and implement their interpretation  on others.
ISIS think they are implementing Qoran.
Saudi Arabia think they are implementing Qoran.
Hundreds of sects are following their interpretation and implementing it accordingly.

Should Qoran not be studied and implemented on oneself first and foremost? Are we  not supposed to cleanse our minds and better ourselves with it ?

GOD tells them clearly"do not force deen" on others",but claim Qoran gives the "freedom of choice" when it suits them.
They cut the heads, fingers and hands  and justify it with Qoran.
 They horde wealth and monopolise it for the leaders and powerful"men" and justify it with Qoran.
They oppress women, children and the weak in society and justify it with Qoran
They tell lies about GOD , create a religion and rules galore.enforce it on others and justify it with Qoran.
...and so on.

Why are not those who implement "cutting hands"  not applying it to themselves when some of them steal people s wealth,property and freedom?

In honesty , if "cutting hands" is applied for theft, there will be:
1- Injustice - Many are stealing little things for necessity-Others are stealing very big-
2-Most people  of the world  Having one hand -The majority of humans take what is not theirs- little things- either deliberately or by mistake-
3- Most leaders will have one hand..
GOD might as well create humans with one hand to start with!!  Perhaps on second though it is a good thing GOD created us with two hands. Otherwise some will still interpret "cut hands" and there will be some folks walking about with no hand at all.

Anyway each to their interpretations.
GOD bless you all.
Peace
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jkhan

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2020, 07:46:37 AM »
Peace..
That's why it is pathetic to hear when conventional Muslims say that it is the order of God in Quran and Hadith.. Heartless people to be honest..

Does anyone notice the strange part in those couple of verses 5:38-39..
God didn't say to forgive them when they thieve..  I would forgive if I found someone  steal anything of mine which the thief need more than me... of course if I realize that.. For example if I found someone is desperate to and found nothing other than stealing.. In case I don't mind losing it.. But God didn't instruct us in Quran to forgive them but can be forgiven when they themselves repent plus reform coz God forgives  so better we do as well.. I or you may be emotional looking at the thief's desperate situation but giving a helping hand for theft and encouraging is not recommended by God correctly... But if we found someone  stealing in hunger, we may approach him casually and extend a helping hand and advise not to steal...  But God directly warns us theft is illegal even how much desperate the situation  is... Big level thieves are real thieves and their only intention  is living a life based on theft...

But people who practice theft on desperate situation are not real thieves.. But definitely not encouraged by God.. If they are in a destitute situation, they can / should always find someone who they feel who can help them... Doing something is always within the possibility, if he is capable enough to steal someone else's property ... Isn't it? Believers should always look for help from God if they find they are desperate but not choose theft...
But what about disbliever (poor) who is on desperate situation?  He doesn't mind ethics.. Our emotion towards him won't work.. It will only boost his hunt to theft making us fool...

So.. I highly accept what God's decision to disconnect the hands of thieves from society... Who knows better than God... Our emotions and dislike is not relevant over the decision of God...

If anyone has researched,  " why one becomes a theif" pls share... I feel it is one's own fault in managing his resources before zero level strikes.. But if unfortunate people like (blind,  orphan etc etc) happened to steal then it is the fault of society ... God encourages charity at very high level... But if one tries to live on charity forever and when helpless trying to steal then he is responsible for his situation... Everyone works hard to earn...  Not to make the beggers and thief enrich by doing nothing..

Those who blindly say that God's verses are clear and it has been commanded to cut the physical hands, should seriously question their reasoning on why God didn't set any conditions like to other major crimes.. Such as bring evidences, witnesses,  blood money etc... It is not simple thing Losing both hands.. So need concrete witnesses.. But God is silent on that.. But to disconnect from society just catching the thief on the spot is enough..

What is a thief?
If someone when caught stealing others property and then by returning what he stole will not make him as No thief.. Either he returns or devour he is thief.. Isnt it? ..by returning what he stole when he was caught on the spot won't make him by any means REPENTED or REFORMED..
So.. Do you still want to cut his hands coz he is literally a thief? No one lost anything... But one loses both hands for nothing.. What a shameful act that is..

Or else vice versa.  Stole 500$ and unable to return.. So one lost 500$ .. So cut hands.. Would anyone of you wish if you are a believer to cut a thief's both hands coz you lost 500$? But you won't mind if a murderer was hanged?  That's so natural...

Will you ever be peaceful whenever you see that thief without hands begging on the streets just coz of your dollars?  It will only be a burden to society by that punishment... Is that exemplary from God? No way..
That's cruel heart of evil men invented by hiding the real meaning of real message of God...
Curse upon curse on those nations who execute such practices..

Finally theft is always wrong coz it is against the ethics of a peaceful society... But cutting hands is worse and unethical...

They forgot the basic who implement such unethical barbaric laws..
Simply start from a family.. What would a father do if his son stole something from his locker.. Cut hands or disconnect his hands from family until he repent and reform? If he reforms accept him... But what happens if father just forgive him and neglect even after he found his son stole... Father is cultivating his son to society to become a thief..



TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2020, 10:57:26 AM »
Salam all!

The answer is in the next ayah, that is 5:40
 [Sahih International]
Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

Peace!

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2020, 03:54:22 PM »
Salam all!

The answer is in the next ayah, that is 5:40
 [Sahih International]
Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

Peace!

peace, punishment in 5:40 is same as in 5:37, 5:41

5:6 وايديكم and hands yours الي to المرافق the elbow

5:38 ايديهما aydiyahuma/hands theirs dual


e.g. two people need to sever 4 hands, forearms, etc.

you suggesting severing both their hands make them as armless mannequins?



https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/38/handschrift/15




TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2020, 12:42:18 AM »
Salam brother Noon!

I am not suggesting any punishment. I know that it is only Allah who has all the right to punish ir forgive. Are you not an Allah only believer? Or the translation of 5:40 is wrong?

Peace!

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2020, 06:00:59 AM »
Or the translation of 5:40 is wrong?

peace tmtt, what has to do with 5:38-39 topic?

5:18 … يغفر forgived لمن to whom يشا willed ويعذب and punished من whom يشا willed ولله and to god ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land وما and what بينهما between them dual واليه and towards him المصير the destiny

5:37 … ولهم and for them عذب punishment مقيم established (end verse/topic)

5:38-39 والسارق and the thief (male) والسارقه and the thief (female) …
… ان indeed الله the god غفور forgiver رحيم merciful (end verse/topic)


5:40 الم did not تعلم thou know ان that الله the god له to him ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land يعذب punished من whom يشا willed ويغفر and forgived لمن to whom يشا willed والله and the god علي on كل every شي thing قدير supreme

48:14 ولله and to god ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land يغفر forgived لمن to whom يشا willed ويعذب and punished من whom يشا willed وكان and be/is الله the god غفورا forgiver of رحيما merciful of


TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2020, 09:17:01 AM »
Salam brother noon!

OK. Message of 5:40 is clear and repeated variously in AQ. Now in Dhul-qarnain case, he was allowed to give the punishment to a nation but he avoided. So Allah can give authority to some of his chosen entities. In Musa's killing case, Allah did not punished him. Instead he was forgiven and appointed as a Rasool. Big QuestionMark?
Let's see 5:38-39 case. فاقطعوا is a commabd given to 3 or more people and ایدی is plural for 3 or more hands. I think it is saying to people to restrain THEIR hands from both of them and IF any one of the people forgets this command and harms the السارق or السارقۃ by chance then he/she can تاب and Allah would forgive him/her. Because people are not given the authority to punish anyone. What will you say if people kill a murderer without any trial in court? Need to look at exact meaning of قطع.
5:40 is end of this topic as 5:41 is beginning of a new topic.

Peace!
Peace!

Wakas

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Re: Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2020, 01:06:48 AM »
peace tf,

Did you actually read the links I provided? Yes/No.

I hope you are not being lazy but I will post them here for all to see:

Like others who hold the view "cut off" you will be forced to admit the word doesn't usually mean cut-off, when the more appropriate intense 2nd form is used with hands it doesn't mean cut-off and you would cut off the hands for stealing a slice of bread etc etc. Is that "God is the standard" in your eyes?

As is often the case when confronted with the evidence their only response is silence.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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