News:

About us: a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran

Main Menu

WHAT DOES QURAN SAY ABOUT BIBLICAL CORRUPTION

Started by tarekkhan29, July 04, 2015, 05:47:10 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

tarekkhan29

Peace-

Does Quran presume that the Previous Revelation was available during Muhammad?s time?

It seems like the purpose of Quran is to verify / confirm / attest the previous scriptures and not to expose corruption.


"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, CONFIRMING THE TORAH THAT CAME BEFORE HIM: We sent him the Gospel: therein IS guidance and light, AND CONFIRMATION OF THE TORAH THAT HAD COME BEFORE HIM: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel." 5:46-47

This is not the only time where Jesus is said to have confirmed the Torah:

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, THE TORAH and the Gospel, And (appoint him) as a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): 'I have come to you,with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I bring the dead into life, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; (I have come to you), TO ATTEST THE TORAH WHICH WAS BEFORE ME. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 3:48-50

The Quran continues:

"And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that IN THEIR POSSESSION ..."  2:89

So, the scripture was with them. What scripture?


The Quran chastens Jews and Christians:

"The Jews say, 'The Christians are not (founded) upon anything.' And the Christians say, 'The Jews are not (founded) upon anything.' And yet they READ the Book (Kitab)." S. 2:113

What book is Allah talking about during Muhammad (P) time?

How can anybody corrupt Allah's words?

"??the words of God are UNCHANGEABLE" 10:64
"The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. NOTHING SHALL ABROGATE HIS WORDS." 6:115


"We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses: be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee): and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel. And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs (Ayat- Verses). Verily thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Judgment, in the matters wherein they differ (among themselves) S. 32:23-25


"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than God; but it is a verification of that WHICH IS BETWEEN HIS (ITS) HANDS, and the explanation OF THE BOOK, wherein there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds." S. 10:37

"And BEFORE THIS was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: and THIS BOOK is a verification (of it) in the Arabic tongue to warn those who transgress and as glad tidings to the righteous." S. 46:12

"Behold, We turned towards you a company of Jinns listening to the Qur'an ... When the (reading) was finished they returned to their people as warners. They said, ?O our people! we have heard a Book REVEALED AFTER MOSES attesting to (the truth of) that WHICH IS BETWEEN HIS (ITS) HANDS - guiding to the truth and to a straight path.?" S. 46:29-30

Finally:

"The (Qur'an) is indeed a message for you (Muhammad) and your people, (all of) you shall be brought to account, and ASK those of our apostles whom we sent before thee, 'Did We appoint any deities other than the Most Merciful whom they should worship? 43:23-25

Since all the apostles had died, the only way for anyone to ask them anything is by consulting their writings. Yet, it would be impossible to know with certainty what their message was if these writings had been corrupted!


This is interesting:

5:50 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any fail to judge by what God has revealed, they are licentious."

Q) If the gospel in time of Muhammad (P) was corrupted, how can they judge by it? And what was that Gospel?


5:71"Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything UNTIL you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord."

Q) How can they perform Torah and the gospel if they are corrupted? And why would Allah keep appealing to the corrupted text?

3:93-94"All food was lawful to the children of Israel except what Israel made unlawful for itself before the Torah was revealed. Say, `BRING the TORAH and READ it, if you are men of truth.' If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to God, they are indeed transgressors."

Q) Again, From where would you bring the torah and read it if the torah is corrupted?

Sura 10:37:

    "This Quran is not such as can be produced by other than God; but it is a verification of that (the Torah and Gospel) which IS between his (its) hands, and the explanation of the Book, WHEREIN THERE IS NO DOUBT, from the Lord of the worlds."

BETWEEN HIS HANDS means that the scriptures were available during Muhammad (P) time. And Quran verified it.

Thanks 

Hizbullah

Peace,

Quran prophecies the future corruption of the former book

Please see the link http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606373.0
Q:02:32 - They said, "Exalted are YOU; we have no knowledge except what YOU have taught us. Indeed, it is YOU who is the Knowing, the Wise."

Man of Faith

Hi Tarekkhan

The important is to know what Toratah and Injeel are first.

Moses received only those statutes in stone and Jesus elaborated upon them giving insight and announced that the Kingdom is at hand.

What Jesus ever said is briefly  summarized in those Biblical Gospels such as the elaboration on the commandments, e.g. "Moses said you should not kill, but I tell you do not be angry with your brother". The one who looks for other teachings is looking for the wrong thing. Jesus taught the misconception that the Sustainer is an object of worship but more for assimilation with imitating the deeds and features of the Sustainer to be perfected, i.e. Jesus taught about behavior.

People are usually more obsessed with rituals and stuff and that is a clear distraction. What is mostly discussed on this forum for example is on how to perform rituals the proper way rather than on lifestyle.

And acknowledge the Sustainer people do better without the constant hatred emitting from the traditional translation of Quran, if you mind me saying it. This god has a huge ego and seems to have a poor self-confidence and must feed it constantly. I have thought something to be wrong for a while now, and I have support from my own dedicated reinterpretation work.

I am sorry if this text upsets you in any way, but I ventilate a little.

Be well
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

tarekkhan29

Peace Hizbullah-

I read your articles and i have few comments. Hizbullah's comments is Red

High possibility that Prophet Muhammad, was born before the 4th Century of the Common Era and the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century in order to counter the distortion of the 1st Book of ALLAH, which comprises of the Torah and Injeel by the Roman Christians as confirmed by the Quranic verse below:

Not really. There is evidence that Muhammad (P) existing during the 7th Century.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html
Q) Where was Prophet Muhammad (P) located?
Q) Any historical / archeological evidence?
Q) If he was supposedly existed before 4th Century, why is it that NOBODY ever mentioned him?


Holy Quran 02:79 -So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Let?s look at the verse which is one of the Quranic evidence, proving that the Quran was sent down during Nicaea. I will segregate the verse into A & B
A.  So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Look at the imperfect verb [underline], shows that the sentence in Present Tense. It proofs that the Quran was sent down during the time when a Book was written. This can only be during the Creed of Nicaea in 325, when the Romans under Constantine created the Bible. This was the time when the distortion of the Book of ALLAH started.


If you read it in the context it's talking about Jews corrupting the scriptures.

Please read 2:70-79.

2:75 Do you expect that they will believe you when a party of them hear the Word of ALLAH, then alter (yuḥarrifūnahu) it after they have understood it, and they well know the consequences thereof.
2:78 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.

There were no gentiles in Council if Nicea.

I can be wrong but are you emphasizing that Muhammad (P) was near NIcea?


From The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.
Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders MONEY to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of god" into existence. Constantine ordered and financed 50 parchment copies of the new "holy scriptures." It seems with the financial element added to the picture, the Church fathers were able to overcome their differences and finally agree which "holy" books would stay and which would go.
[/color]

There is no historical proof of Constantine paying churches to agree upon one canon. What is the author's source if this information?
The First Council of Nicea purpose was settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father(addressing Ariunism heresy),the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, establishing uniform observance of the date of Easter, and promulgation of early canon law.
And definitely, nobody was writing books in Council of Nicea.

Holy Quran 05:68 - Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord."
The command of ALLAH thru HIS prophet is the above verse. This shows explicitly that the Book of ALLAH was intact. Nobody in their right mind, especially a prophet, would want to teach things that are already distorted! The Prophet warned the People of the Book to uphold the Torah and Gospel and the Quran for their own salvation. Unfortunately, they did not as per the Holy Quran...
Holy Quran 05:66 -And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet,  there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.


Agreed.

B. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Again, look at the perfect verb and imperfect verb [underline], shows that the sentence in Past Tense and Present Tense respectively.


Exactly. Corruption has been taking place in Past and Present. Few example from the top of my head:
Deut 34 (Death of Moses): Torah (Pentateuch) is supposedly written by Moses except for Deut 34 which describes Moses's funeral.
Translation of Hebrew Bible into Greek (Septuagint).
1 John5:7, Mark chapter 16 longer Ending, Jesus and the Adulteress story, the whole passion and resurrection even.
Deuterocanonical books removed by Protestant Christians

Further, an abstract from The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.
"Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."

Not historically true. This is religious conspiracy theory. Internet scholarship. I would highly recommend Prof. Bart Ehrman's lectures From Jesus to Constantine on early Christian history.


So, it had been prophesied by the Almighty that the Bible will be distorted. Another most significant proof that the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century is the story about the Sleepers of the Cave. This Glorious Quranic verse is a prophecy and a Quranic evidence.
AQ 18:22 - They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among from anyone."
Study the tenses carefully and you will find that the sentence is in Future/Present Tense. None knows them except a few. Historical evidence from the earliest Christian version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop, Jacob of Sarugh (c. 450-521), in the 6th-century.
Another significant Quranic proof ?
AQ 18:25 - And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine
Historical evidence shows that the persecution of the so called Christians in the Roman Empire occurred over a period of about three centuries until the 313 Edict of Milan issued by Emperors Constantine and Licinius. This was the beginning of the era of official Christianity. A new religion was born. The Sleepers of the Cave slept in the year 13 and woke up 300 years later, in the year 313. 313 CE was the period where the persecutions to the believers stop. ALLAH THE EXALTED extended the lives of the Sleepers to another 9 years. They died in year 322. The 1st Nicene Creed was in the year 325.


Questions:
1. How do you know Quran was written in the 4th Century?
2. How did the ARABS get their hands on the Quran?
3. Who started this conspiracy?
4. When was this conspiracy started?
5. Whose graves are in Al-Masjid an-Nibali, Medina, Saudi Arabia?
6. Who were Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman and Ali? Were they legend?
7. If Muhammad (P) existed during 4th Century, don't you think his tomb would have been visited by Muslims?

Peace.

Hizbullah

Peace


Quote from: tarekkhan29 on July 04, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
Not really. There is evidence that Muhammad (P) existing during the 7th Century.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html

At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Muḥammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you.[32]


It is not referring to the Quranic Last prophet of ALLAH - MUHAMMAD - THE PRAISE ONE. The Quranic Last Prophet of ALLAH was descended from Prophet Ishaq [Q:12:06 ; 29:27] and NOT Prophet Ismael. It is referring to someone who took the name of Muhammad.


Quote from: tarekkhan29 on July 04, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
Q) Where was Prophet Muhammad (P) located?
Q) Any historical / archeological evidence?
Q) If he was supposedly existed before 4th Century, why is it that NOBODY ever mentioned him?

The Prophet was a Rasulan-Nabiy [Messenger-Prophet] just like Prophet Ismael and Prophet Musa. He was sent to ALL nations.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607488.0


Quote from: tarekkhan29 on July 04, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
Holy Quran 02:79 -So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Let?s look at the verse which is one of the Quranic evidence, proving that the Quran was sent down during Nicaea. I will segregate the verse into A & B

A.  So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Look at the imperfect verb [underline], shows that the sentence in Present Tense. It proofs that the Quran was sent down during the time when a Book was written. This can only be during the Creed of Nicaea in 325, when the Romans under Constantine created the Bible. This was the time when the distortion of the Book of ALLAH started.

If you read it in the context it's talking about Jews corrupting the scriptures.

Please read 2:70-79.

2:75 Do you expect that they will believe you when a party of them hear the Word of ALLAH, then alter (yuḥarrifūnahu) it after they have understood it, and they well know the consequences thereof.
2:78 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.

There were no gentiles in Council if Nicea.

I can be wrong but are you emphasizing that Muhammad (P) was near NIcea?


If you read the verses in context you will find that they were not Jews. Jews are consider "People of the Book". The verse says..


2:78 Among them are UMMIYUNA - WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK EXCEPT HEARSAY and indeed they only conjectured.


UMMIYUNA means those who have no knowledge of the Book. So it is not referring to the Jews but to the Greco-Romans who have no knowledge of the Book of Musa. They were the ones who created the NT and distort the OT [03:78].

Also please read 03:20

فَإنْ حَآجُّوكَ فَقُلْ أَسْلَمْتُ وَجْهِىَ للَّهِ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِ وَقُلْ لِّلَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ وَالاٍّمِّيِّينَ ءَأَسْلَمْتُمْ فَإِنْ أَسْلَمُواْ فَقَدِ اهْتَدَواْ وَّإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلَـغُ وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِالْعِبَادِ

So if they dispute with you say: "I have submitted myself to Allah, and (so have) those who follow me.'' And say to those who were given the Book (Jews and Nasara) and to those who have no knowledge of the Book: "Do you (also) submit yourselves'' If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah sees the servants.



Quote from: tarekkhan29 on July 04, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
There is no historical proof of Constantine paying churches to agree upon one canon. What is the author's source if this information?
The First Council of Nicea purpose was settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father(addressing Ariunism heresy),the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, establishing uniform observance of the date of Easter, and promulgation of early canon law.
And definitely, nobody was writing books in Council of Nicea.


Quranic evidence proof that the church was bribed.


So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.


Christianity was established officially in 4th Century CE by Constantine. It is plausible his father Constantius I, had plan of its doctrine and some scriptures were wrote prior to the Creed of Nicea.


The ANTIQUITY of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).

Constantine needed some religious literature that was old, which was NOT Greek, and which could be used as a platform. It had to have an antiquity comparable to the Greek and Egyptian histories. Somehow, he came across the Hebrew Bible - possibly in the library of Caesarea, and possibly translated by Origen. [NOTE: According to Eusebius, in the 3rd century, Origen had a teacher who were called "Ammonius" - also see WIKI,

On the basis of this Greek LXX, Constantine commissioned a team of Greek scribes and editors to data-mine this text to generate "prophecies" and sayings which were put into the mouths of the characters who appear in a newly fabricated "story-book" - Greek New Testament. He then bound the Old and the New together as his "holy writ", which was presented at Nicaea as the basis of his revolutionary centralized monotheistic state cult.

The propaganda issued from Constantine's Christian Historian Eusebius, and all that followed him, was that the Hebrew sages (in the LXX) had a greater antiquity, and a greater wisdom, and took priority in all things, over and above the Greek sages. The summary of all this was that "Plato had taken his knowledge from Moses".

Armed with this "holy writ" as the legal basis for religion in the Roman Empire, the Greek religious cults and philosophical schools were doomed. According to the Law Codes in the Theodosian Codex, in 326 CE (16.5.1) Constantine issued the decree that "Religious privileges are reserved for Christians". Not long into the 4th century we find a list of the top seven Christian heresies - all the major Greek philosophical schools.



The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH. I reject the legend that it was circulated by Ptolemy of Egypt in the 2nd century BCE on the basis of zero evidence.


Quote from: tarekkhan29 on July 04, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
Exactly. Corruption has been taking place in Past and Present. Few example from the top of my head:
Deut 34 (Death of Moses): Torah (Pentateuch) is supposedly written by Moses except for Deut 34 which describes Moses's funeral.
Translation of Hebrew Bible into Greek (Septuagint).
1 John5:7, Mark chapter 16 longer Ending, Jesus and the Adulteress story, the whole passion and resurrection even.
Deuterocanonical books removed by Protestant Christians


When I say Present and Past, I was referring to the tenses. Grammatical tenses in the Quran shows when the Quran was sent down. Corruption of the Book of ALLAH occurred after the Quran was sent down. ALLAH says in the Quran 05:44


05:44 - I, We sent down the Torah, in it was guidance and light. Judge by it the prophets those who submit, that is, those who are Jews and the rabbis and learned men of religion with what they WILL PROTECT ALLAH?s Book, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear ME and do not sell MY verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what ALLAH has revealed ? then it is those who are the disbelievers.


The Prophets were the judge, supervising their powers on the Rabbaniyyun, refers to the worshippers who are learned and religious, and Ahbar refers to the scholars, meaning, they were entrusted to protect the Book of Allah, and they were commanded to adhere to it and not hide any part of it OR to sell HIS verses for a small price.

Prophets were warners. If Prophet Muhammad?s ministry was in the 7th Century CE, 300 years after Nicea, what is the point of warning when the Book had already been distorted! Do you think is going to be easy. Read the Quran again, what are the replies of the disbelievers to their prophets even after great proof were shown to them.


05:19 - O People of the Book, there had come to you Our Messenger to make evidence to you after a period of suspension of messengers, that you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." Now had come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And ALLAH is over all things competent.


The last Prophet came when there was an absence of messenger to carry out the command and control to those who were given the authority to protect the Book. The Last Prophet of ALLAH was sent to protect the Book [aka OT aka Bible] of ALLAH! He was commanded to instruct them...


05:68 - Say, "O People of the Book, you are on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Taurat and the Injeel and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.



AQ 05:15 O People of the Book, there had come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you conceal of the Book and obliterate much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.



The above verse proofs that the last Prophet came at the time when the hidings and obliteration of the Book were being carried out and at the time when the Quran was first sent down.


Quote from: tarekkhan29 on July 04, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
Not historically true. This is religious conspiracy theory. Internet scholarship. I would highly recommend Prof. Bart Ehrman's lectures From Jesus to Constantine on early Christian history.


You can call what ever you want to. It does not matter to me. What matters to me most is the Quran. The Quran show me the history of it and the Last Prophet.



These are the verses of ALLAH which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after ALLAH and His verses will they believe?



So Mr Tarek, whose words do you trust, our CREATOR or Prof. Bart Ehrman's?


Quote from: tarekkhan29 on July 04, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
Questions:
1. How do you know Quran was written in the 4th Century?
2. How did the ARABS get their hands on the Quran?
3. Who started this conspiracy?
4. When was this conspiracy started?
5. Whose graves are in Al-Masjid an-Nibali, Medina, Saudi Arabia?
6. Who were Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman and Ali? Were they legend?
7. If Muhammad (P) existed during 4th Century, don't you think his tomb would have been visited by Muslims?


1. Grammatical rules tells me that the Quran was written in the 3rd / 4th Century.

2. The Quranic Last Prophet of ALLAH was sent to nations, the Arabs was / are one of them.

3. The Arabs

4. 5th Century, when the cursive musnad script of the Quran was change to Jazm [Hijazi] script. That was the beginning of the Arabization of the Middle East. The Sanaa Codex was written in the Jazm script. That means, the Quran was already present before the birth of the so called Arab prophet in the 570 CE. The Kufic script of the Quran was first used by the Abbassiah Caliphate in the 7th Century when they established themselves in Kuffah, the present Iraq.

5. No one

6. They were all fictitious character just like Khadijah and Aishah

7. For what? so that the muslims would become prophet worshipper where we can see for ourselves at present in Medina. Millions of Muslims went there and worship the so called Arab prophet.


Peace




Q:02:32 - They said, "Exalted are YOU; we have no knowledge except what YOU have taught us. Indeed, it is YOU who is the Knowing, the Wise."

tarekkhan29

Hizbullah,

The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH. I reject the legend that it was circulated by Ptolemy of Egypt in the 2nd century BCE on the basis of zero evidence.
The above verse proofs that the last Prophet came at the time when the hidings and obliteration of the Book were being carried out and at the time when the Quran was first sent down.
If Prophet Muhammad?s ministry was in the 7th Century CE, 300 years after Nicea, what is the point of warning when the Book had already been distorted! Do you think is going to be easy.



That is totally incorrect. Torah was textually corrupted even before the arrival of Jesus(P) let alone Muhammad(P). How do we know that? Read Jeremiah 8:8 :

?How can you say, ?We are wise, and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us??
But behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

Here Jeremiah is admitting that scribes had perverted the truth of the law (Torah) into a lie.

Secondly, Deut 34 which is a last book of Torah (supposedly authored by Moses) talks about his funeral, is now widely accepted by both Jewish and Christian scholars as a fabrication and interpolation.

Deuteronomy 34:5
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, 6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe′or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
8 And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.

Comments:
Some say that this was written by Joshua (Rabbi Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra)

It is indeed not authored by Moshe. Perhaps either Joshua or one of his followers. (Torah- The Modern Commentary by Rabbi Gunther Plaut).

Thirdly, the translation of Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek (Septuagint LXX) has lots of mistakes in it (which existed before Prophet Muhammad (P)) as compared to Masoretic Text.

So your ?The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH? theory goes out of the window.


Christianity was established officially in 4th Century CE by Constantine. It is plausible his father Constantius I, had plan of its doctrine and some scriptures were wrote prior to the Creed of Nicea.
The ANTIQUITY of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
Constantine needed some religious literature that was old, which was NOT Greek, and which could be used as a platform. It had to have an antiquity comparable to the Greek and Egyptian histories. Somehow, he came across the Hebrew Bible - possibly in the library of Caesarea, and possibly translated by Origen. [NOTE: According to Eusebius, in the 3rd century, Origen had a teacher who were called "Ammonius" - also see WIKI,

On the basis of this Greek LXX, Constantine commissioned a team of Greek scribes and editors to data-mine this text to generate "prophecies" and sayings which were put into the mouths of the characters who appear in a newly fabricated "story-book" - Greek New Testament. He then bound the Old and the New together as his "holy writ", which was presented at Nicaea as the basis of his revolutionary centralized monotheistic state cult.
The propaganda issued from Constantine's Christian Historian Eusebius, and all that followed him, was that the Hebrew sages (in the LXX) had a greater antiquity, and a greater wisdom, and took priority in all things, over and above the Greek sages. The summary of all this was that "Plato had taken his knowledge from Moses".
Armed with this "holy writ" as the legal basis for religion in the Roman Empire, the Greek religious cults and philosophical schools were doomed. According to the Law Codes in the Theodosian Codex, in 326 CE (16.5.1) Constantine issued the decree that "Religious privileges are reserved for Christians". Not long into the 4th century we find a list of the top seven Christian heresies - all the major Greek philosophical schools.


This is historically inaccurate. What is the source of this information?

The first author to list the twenty-seven books of our New Testament
as the canonical books (these and no others) was the bishop of Alexandria,
Athanasius, in 367 ce. Even then, however, debates continued, even in
orthodox circles. In some parts of the Christian church, there never has been
complete agreement.

The Muratorian Fragment is the oldest surviving New Testament canon
list?that is a list of books believed to comprise the canonical New Testament?
known to exist. Written in ungrammatical Latin. Twenty-two of the twenty-seven books of
the New Testament canon are included here?all except Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and
3 John. But the author also accepts as canonical the Wisdom of Solomon and the
Apocalypse of Peter and the Shepherd of Hermas.



Council of Nicea
================

Council of Nicea was the first ?ecumenical? church council in 325 ce,
called by the Emperor Constantine, in part, to resolve theological differences that were
splitting the church. The creed that came out of the Council became instrumental in
the formation of later Christian theology, and developed into what is now
called the ?Nicene Creed,? still recited in churches today. It has NOTHING to do with canonization of scriptures. That was accomplished in the Third Synod of Carthage.


The Canon of the Third
Synod of Carthage
======================

The New Testament canon was never ratified by an ?ecumenical? council
(i.e. a meeting of bishops from around the Christian world) in the early
church. But there were several smaller synods and councils that pronounced
judgment on which books should be accepted as canonical Scripture. Evidently
the first to ratify the twenty-seven book canon propounded by Athanasius,
and accepted by most churches still today, was a Synod in Hippo,
North Africa, in 393 ce, where the greatest orthodox theologian of antiquity,
Augustine of Hippo, threw his weight behind Athanasius?s list and pushed
its acceptance. Even this synod?s affirmation of the canon was not universally binding,
as indicated in the proceedings themselves, where it is noted that the church
across the sea (i.e., Rome, on the other side of the Mediterranean) was to
be consulted on the matter. And, as it turns out, different churches in other
parts of the world never did agree on this twenty-seven book canon, despite
its overwhelming acceptance in both Western and Eastern branches of
Christendom.


Bruce M. Metzger, The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development,
and Significance
Bart Ehrman, Lost Christianities, 229?47
Bart Ehrman, Lost Scriptures
Bart Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture
Raymond E. Brown, Introduction to New Testament
Synod of 397, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Carthage#Synod_of_397



3:20
So if they dispute with you say: "I have submitted myself to Allah, and (so have) those who follow me.'' And say to those who were given the Book (Jews and Nasara) and to those who have no knowledge of the Book: "Do you (also) submit yourselves'' If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah sees the servants.

This verse talks about two kinds of people:
1)   Those who receive the book (Jews and Christians)
2)   Those who didn?t receive the book i.e Gentiles (umiyīna)

Gentiles = People who didn?t receive the scriptures. Hence they have no knowledge of the book.

So you actually proved my point. Gentiles didn?t receive the book. So the textual corruption in 2:78 has nothing to do with them.

If you read the verses in context you will find that they were not Jews. Jews are consider "People of the Book". The verse says..
2:78 Among them are UMMIYUNA - WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK EXCEPT HEARSAY and indeed they only conjectured.
UMMIYUNA means those who have no knowledge of the Book. So it is not referring to the Jews but to the Greco-Romans who have no knowledge of the Book of Musa. They were the ones who created the NT and distort the OT [03:78].


?Greco-Romans ?not only had knowledge of Book of Moses but also the entire Old Testament. They had Septuagint (LXX) is their possession which is a Greek translation of Hebrew Bible.

Just try to understand the fallacy in your statement. Let?s say for the sake of argument I agree with you. If they have NO knowledge of the book, then how can they corrupt it? How can you corrupt something of which you don?t possess no knowledge of? Secondly, how did you reach the conclusion that the verse 2:78 is talking about Book of Moses? If so then how come  New Testament quotes Torah (Book of Moses) 100 TIMES. How can they quote Torah if they don?t have any knowledge about it? That doesn?t make any sense.

Now let?s talk about who corrupted the scriptures in 2:75-2:78

2:75 Do you then hope that they(the Jews)would believe in you, and a party from among them(the Jews) indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered(yuḥarrifūnahu) it after they(the Jews) had understood it, and they(The Jews) know

(So it is established here beyond the show of the doubt that Jews did corrupt the scriptures)

2:76 And when they (The Jews) meet those who believe they say: We (The Jews) believe, and when they (The Jews) are alone one with another they say: Do you talk to them (The Jews) of what Allah has disclosed to you that they (The Jews) may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?

2:77 Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?

2:78 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.

(Gentiles do not know the scripture. They except through heresay.)

2:79 Therefore, woe to those (The Jews) who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.

?Woe to those!? Who is this referring to? This is NOT referring to the Gentiles, because they had no knowledge of the book hence they cannot corrupt it. But rather it?s referring to the people who altered / wrote / added / edited book of Allah i.e The Jews. How do we know this? Go back to 2:75 it clearly states that the Jews distorted (yuḥarrifūnahu) the scripture.

So Mr Tarek, whose words do you trust, our CREATOR or Prof. Bart Ehrman's?

I agree with Quran where religious guidance is concerned. I also agree with Prof. Bart Ehrman where his expertise in the field are concerned. They are not in contradiction. What I don?t agree with is your interpretation imposed on the text. One that?s not consistent with the biblical history, one that is not consistent with historical context within the Quran.


Mr. Hizbullah I am staying with somebody and my access to computer is very limited. I?ll get back to the Prophet Muhammad?s lineage and the proof of his existence in 7th century using non Islamic sources in a week or so.

I do appreciate your time and your true efforts.


Peace.

almarh0m

Salamun Alaykum

Firstly, I would like to ask what "Biblical Corruption"? Secondly, if The Bible was a truly book from Allah than it is impossible for it to be corrupted. If one believes that the Bible is the lost Torah and Injeel, then they are accusing Allah or The God of failing to protect His words. As I do not believe The Bible is a book of revelation/message from God, there is no corruption in it. We either take what is good from it and apply it in our lives or treat the people who believes in them with respect regardless of our view of The Bible.

As for what The Qur'an say about corruption/invention of "holy books/writings, The Qur'an is very clear on that. Please read Qur'an 2:78-79 and 3:78-79. My own understanding is that the so called Bible has nothing to do with either Taurat and injeel but is is a compilation of many writings and extracts from various other writings which predated the the Bible as we know it today. although, there is no doubting about some verses of the Taurat and injeel somehow found their way into the bible, by no means renders the bible a "corrupted copy" of the Torah or Injeel. It is worth a look at what Allah and His Messenger say in The Qur'an regarding Unchange-ability or Un-alterability of the words of God as we shall see below;

6:114...... Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakaman wahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalan waallatheena ataynahumu alkitaba yaAAlamoona annahu munazzalun min rabbika bialhaqqi fala takoonanna mina almumtareena

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.   


6:115......Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqan waAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa alssameeAAu alAAaleemu

                  The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

From this verse ( 6:115), it is safe to conclude that the words of god cannot be changed or corrupted by any human or Jinn.


Salam

almarh0m




"He who Created me, it is He who Guides me"

Man of Faith

Quote
?How can you say, ?We are wise, and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us??
But behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

They basically corrupted the two first commandments and reinforced the third to exaggerated levels, i.e. no vain talk, meaning no one can even question anything or have a hard time doing it without people telling them they are indulging in "vain words".

The corruption of the two first commandments is really having a huge impact on the faith. The first was to keep inseparably to the Being of unity and the second was not to erect any image of anything from either Heaven (abstract) or Earth (physical) and worship it.

Both were bitterly corrupted into heavily making a separation of the Sustainer phenomenon while it was never intended to be separate from oneself. The Sustainer said to Moses: "I am who am I" and that is the third-person meaning of allah since then although clerics have corrupted is due to sinister motives or merely ignorance.

Rabb is the word for "God" although they are not equal in meaning and not allah and has always been. No righteous person says ya allah in Quran for a reason and why it is narrated in plural reference very often.

Be well
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

FreedomStands

Quote from: almarh0m on July 19, 2015, 03:11:14 AM
Salamun Alaykum

Firstly, I would like to ask what "Biblical Corruption"? Secondly, if The Bible was a truly book from Allah than it is impossible for it to be corrupted. If one believes that the Bible is the lost Torah and Injeel, then they are accusing Allah or The God of failing to protect His words. As I do not believe The Bible is a book of revelation/message from God, there is no corruption in it. We either take what is good from it and apply it in our lives or treat the people who believes in them with respect regardless of our view of The Bible.

As for what The Qur'an say about corruption/invention of "holy books/writings, The Qur'an is very clear on that. Please read Qur'an 2:78-79 and 3:78-79. My own understanding is that the so called Bible has nothing to do with either Taurat and injeel but is is a compilation of many writings and extracts from various other writings which predated the the Bible as we know it today. although, there is no doubting about some verses of the Taurat and injeel somehow found their way into the bible, by no means renders the bible a "corrupted copy" of the Torah or Injeel. It is worth a look at what Allah and His Messenger say in The Qur'an regarding Unchange-ability or Un-alterability of the words of God as we shall see below;

6:114...... Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakaman wahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalan waallatheena ataynahumu alkitaba yaAAlamoona annahu munazzalun min rabbika bialhaqqi fala takoonanna mina almumtareena

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.   


6:115......Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqan waAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa alssameeAAu alAAaleemu

                  The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

From this verse ( 6:115), it is safe to conclude that the words of god cannot be changed or corrupted by any human or Jinn.


Salam

almarh0m

If anything is corrupted, it is God who corrupted it ultimately.
Read these
Easy Religion in a Nutshell
[url="http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-59014.html"]http://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-59014.html[/url]
This may answer many questions!
[url="https://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-505254.html"]https://lunaticoutpost.com/thread-505254.html[/url]
Kindly email me: [email]foxyfoxgames@gmail.com[/email]

Layth

Peace,

Musadiqan is closest to 'affirming'. The prophets affirmed what was previously revealed (they did not sanction what existed as is but revealed its corrections'. The request is for these people to rule by 'what God sent down', not 'by what they had' (there is a big difference in that small choice of words).
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)