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Why Quranism Does Not Work & Hadith Are Historically Accurate!

Started by Hadithete, March 31, 2015, 07:52:52 AM

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mmkhan

Quote from: Hadithete on April 01, 2015, 07:25:54 AM
Thank you Mr. Bukhari

Why do you people keep saying "Bukhari" as if he has something to do with this? He wrote nothing, he simply collected what had been said by the Sahaba.

OK, thank you sahaba for saying such lies and thank you bukhari for collecting the lies.


Quote
AND YOU ALL IGNORE THE FACT THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO IGNORE HADITH, YOU MUST ALSO IGNORE THE QURAN BECAUSE IT WAS TRANSMITTED TO YOU BY THE SAME PEOPLE. My God, you are all mentally insane. You keep saying "Quran," but do you even know it?

Red: Evidence expected from alQuraan.


May Allah protect us from fabrications, lies and guide us on His only path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

Man of Faith

Salaam hadithete,

Who is dishonest?

Proven fact? Everything can be fabricated and it is not really like the person of the hadith is a righteous person.

If something is unrighteous and something else is not then you cannot equal them. Quran is a formidable narration and consistent. Your suggestion has to with the conjecture by dishonest clerics and scholars. Quran's real interpretation and that hadith do not even speak of the same thing, so how can you relate them?

Quran's traditional historical record is highly questionable and I am not sure how you can compare the coherent and wise language with that hadith. They are not even on the same level.

Emulate the prophet, well it is ALLAH you are supposed to emulate and the messenger/beacon. And the prophet of Quran does not teach anything deviating from what has already been taught. The prophet from that hadith is not really a role model but often unrighteous and hypocritical.

What do you mumble about? And we can wonder how is relaying foolishness.

Do you desire to follow a Pagan religion (sect) you are free to do so, but I like to be of the sound ones (Al-Muslimeen).

Yes I reject hadith as a historical source because it is just a pile of kufr'ed conjecture that throws dirt on the compilation called Quran of spiritual teachings.

Do you have the right or prerequisite to call yourself Muslim? Are you sound? Do you not follow a sectarian doctrine blindly? Do you even know what Quran teaches?

What is heresy? A human term to curse someone who chooses a way?

Call me stupid, heretic or whatever else you are about to say because that only shows how un-muslim you are and how little you understand about the spirituality conveyed by Quran. You focus on a worldly doctrine and it is what you will get. The Jinnah is appealing to you, watch out so you do not get Jehennah.

I urge you to tone down on your rhetoric considered the forum rules and for the sake of peace.

Salaam
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

OussamaNL

May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon you

Hadithe, u stated:"
The only garbage here is Quranism that follows a garbage book with a garbage doctrine of heresy."


Do you even know what book we want to follow? Its called the Quran. So why are you calling it garbage? Nobody is offering other books beside the quran except you.

The Quran is from God, complete, fully detailed, explaining everything small and big. Do you believe that? If not please go sell ur books somewhere else.

People are quoting Quran and what do you quote?

Is there any hadith better then the quran?

Please calm down and show us your proofs, is there another relevation beside the quran that came down on muhammad?

All Praise due to The God, The Lord of the Worlds

hicham9

Quote from: hicham9 on March 31, 2015, 08:59:15 AM
Quote from: Hadithete on March 31, 2015, 07:52:52 AMListen to what you can do,  use the Ahadith ...
No can't do!

Quote from: Hadithete on March 31, 2015, 04:32:50 PM
Quote from: hicham9 on March 31, 2015, 08:59:15 AM
G-D is the only, relevant Lawmaker.
That's true, what relevance does that have to do with the validity of the Hadith?

The relevance comes into view when these spurious anecdotes of yours start inserting/adding (man-made) laws/rulings/rules of conduct [e.g., stoning; using right hand when eating, steping in with left foot when entering the bathroom, drawing and music are unlawful, and the list goes on and on with all kinds of (anti-quranic) lies and backward superstitions] and attributing them to our Master and/or His messenger/s; when in fact Legislation (الحكم) belongs to G-D alone (6:57, 12:40, 12:67, 13:41, 18:26, 5:50, etc)!

The so-called "sunna nabawiyah/prophetic tradition" (= a misnomer) that the Tagut conditioned us/you to acknowledge as sacrosanct [whether "sunna qawliya" (oral tradition), "sunna fi3liya" (practical tradition), "sunna taqririya" (affirmative tradition), or "sunna wasfiya" (descriptive tradition)] was NEVER authorized by G-D! Our Master imparted no sanction for it"! Moreover, according to the Quran, the prophet followed and propogated the Divine inspiration alone.

Sectarian Traditionalists (like your-current-self) are too brainwashed to face the facts (of reality).

Unlike the Quran, the Hadith corpus does not qualify as "primary source" material in the first place since it was compiled hundreds of years after the written Quran (as evidenced by the manuscripts we have)!

Quote from: Hadithete on March 31, 2015, 04:32:50 PM
Also, in the Quran it clearly says, "Obey God and obey the Messenger."

Shame on you, quoting G-D out of context (to misguide)!


~ I recommend you stop replying to me,
I'm not interested in shooting sitting ducks
not for now at least.
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

good logic

Peace Hadithete.

What does Qoran say?  :

Qoran 18:27] You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it.

[Qoran 6:114] Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?* Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

[Qoran 45:6] These are God's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?

[Qoran 5:50] Is it the law of the days of ignorance that they seek to uphold? Whose law is better than God's for those who have attained certainty?

If you do not agree with the translation, quote your own translation of these verses and see what GOD is saying to you here?

Was Mohammed allowed to add his own words or anyone elses words to Qoran?:

[Qoran 69:40] This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
[Qoran 69:41] Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
[Qoran 69:42] Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
[Qoran 69:43] A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[Qoran 69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings. [Quran 69:45] We would have punished him.
[Qoran 69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him.


Sahih, Authentic or whatever you call it, Only Qoran is allowed as authority,the only hadith, authored by the Lord of the universe. !!!!!!

[Qoran 6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran* has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."


[Qoran 50:45] We are fully aware of everything they utter, while you have no power over them. Therefore, remind with this Quran, those who reverence My warnings.

GOD chooses His words carefully, if He( No gender intended) wanted us to follow other "Sahih/Authentic "hadiths he would have said "This Qoran and ...hadiths". Did he?!!!!

And finally:

[Qoran 52:34] Let them produce a Hadith like this, if they are truthful.

[Qoran 77:50] Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?

[Qoran 39:23] God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills (to be guided). As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.


We would like to obey GOD and follow His Hadith, Qoran alone.
You also have the choice ,follow your hadiths.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/[/url]

Hadithete

I am tired of your apologetic excuses, you're on a lost cause when you cannot refute the fact that Quran was transmitted to you by the same companions that transmitted you the Hadith. This is a fact, not an opinion that you can disagree with. Feel free to watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Susl-QCNCjA
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMWho is dishonest?
You.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMProven fact? Everything can be fabricated and it is not really like the person of the hadith is a righteous person.
This is a proven fact. About "anything can be fabricated and no person of the hadith is a righteous person," I suppose this means Quran was all a fabrication made by a companion of Muhammad, most likely Uthman, am I correct? You do realize current Quran is in his designed chronology and then you still continue to believe Quran is a revelation that was not transmitted by those companions, yet disregard hadith that was? You make no logical sense, but that's the norm with the Quranists, they do not know any logic. The whole sect is founded on a misconception that can and has been debunked.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMIf something is unrighteous and something else is not then you cannot equal them. Quran is a formidable narration and consistent.
You claim this by putting history besides, surely you can claim "Quran is a formidable narration and consistent," but if you reject hadith as a fabrication of a mad man's imagination, then you should do the same to the Quran if you don't want to look like a stupid hypocrite. Also, Quran is not consistent in its current format, its chronology is absolutely incoherent and designed by how Uthman wanted to design the Quran as, Surat Yusuf is the only one consistent.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMYour suggestion has to with the conjecture by dishonest clerics and scholars. Quran's real interpretation and that hadith do not even speak of the same thing, so how can you relate them?
Alright, I am going to explain this real easy, you blind-believing, dogmatic fool, this is not a "suggestion" based on "conjecture," yours is however. Mine is based on a simple historical fact, not by a clergy or scholar, but by historians, academics and others that know these stuff far more advanced than where your petty faith-knowledge goes. How I relate them? Because they come from the same historical source, God damn it. Are you too dull to understand this or what?
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMQuran's traditional historical record is highly questionable and I am not sure how you can compare the coherent and wise language with that hadith. They are not even on the same level.
Firstly, your choice of word here is "traditional." This is flawed and refuted by the orientalist Marshall Hodgson in his book The Venture of Islam. Secondly, you question the historical record, why? Those who do deny it is refuted by the majority of orientalists and amateurs like Christoph Luxenburgh are debunked heavily. We have empiric proof of the Sasaa manuscript which conforms with the "traditional" (factual) dating. Likewise, Hadith are (regardless of your acceptance) in the same level, the authentic ones that is. Truth hurts, I know, but that's how it is; your current stance on religion is flawed, but accept Hadith and go on the right path.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMEmulate the prophet, well it is ALLAH you are supposed to emulate and the messenger/beacon. And the prophet of Quran does not teach anything deviating from what has already been taught. The prophet from that hadith is not really a role model but often unrighteous and hypocritical.
Another retardation of the Quranists is their outright denial of what is written in the Quran: No credible scholar is a Quranist since that school of though is so weak it doesn't answer how many prayers a Muslim should pray a day or even how to pray properly. Having watched and read a lot of scholars of different schools, I never came across an honest genuine Quranist. Quranism also fails to put the Quran in its historical context when in fact a lot of verses in the Quran can only be reasonably understood in their context. That's with regard to scholars.

With regard to the Muslim population, Quranists are strictly a Western Muslim phenomenon. They have very little support among Muslims in Muslim countries. Muslims who live the in the West tend to prefer "moderate" Islam. And Quranism can be seen as very "moderate." Sadly, it's also very non-Islamic. This concept is rejected by mainstream scholars.

The Quran itself cannot be interpreted by any one person in his own lifetime to its fullest when considering the language of traditional Arabic, the context of revealed verses, and the era it was revealed in. Tafseer (interpretation) may help aid a reader in some cases, but is not enough. It needs to be complimented by the actual life of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his day-to-day practices of the revelation.

For this many schools of thought have dedicated many generations of scholars to a lifetime of research in order to provide the most accurate way to implement the teachings of Islam.

Schools like Shafii Hanafi Hambali and Maliki have done the research for us, many of whom differ on details based on certain cases in the Prophet's (PBUH) life, however all are correct and acceptable to follow as defined guidelines.

People who choose not to follow a school of thought and think they can interpret the Quran the way they choose based on their own influences and dispositions in their current climate, may very easily take verses out of context or create a false premise based on an invalid assumption, and would be truly lost in faith.

Some may even justify an act of atrocity because they wanted to read a verse in such a way that it may suit their own stance, and that is leading away from the authenticity that Islam prides itself on. That is leading away from the straight path.

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. [4:59]

I suppose that you're not one who believes. And you're disgusting if you claim the man who brought the Quran is "unrighteous," this is heretical, which is why no orientalist relies on you people because you cannot provide any evidence and that which you have is from a book that you even desperately denies its own origins.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMWhat do you mumble about? And we can wonder how is relaying foolishness.
O shut up, you're the stupidest person I have ever met.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMDo you desire to follow a Pagan religion (sect) you are free to do so, but I like to be of the sound ones (Al-Muslimeen).
If you watch the video, you would understand that most Quranists have the same attitude as you do. I was one like you too, I thought I followed "true Islam" and not this materialized cult that the other Muslims followed, but you know what I realized? That history proves me wrong because if I was going to reject hadith I was going to reject Quran due to they were transmitted by the same source. I kept getting allegations from people like "Muhammad raped a 9 year old girl," or Muhammad beheaded many Jews in Bani Qurayza, I found this, as every Western Muslim, to be repulsive. I did not accept its authenticity, but seemingly most clerics accepted it to be valid. Thus, I thought that if I put my fingers inside my ears the facts will somehow disappear, but this is just one way before you know you loses faith and apostate. Recently, I have become rationalized and gone back to the path of God by refuting these Hadith's authenticity, but not rejecting them overall, which is not the ideal way and you must learn this if you want to be of the Muslimeen, right now, you're a Munkar.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMYes I reject hadith as a historical source because it is just a pile of kufr'ed conjecture that throws dirt on the compilation called Quran of spiritual teachings.
This is why you are historically, scientifically, religiously wrong and why you're on the wrong path and the only kufr here is you and the obvious conjecture of the Quranist in regards to the interpretations of Quranic verses and about the hard-core, factual Islamic history that outright deny (not reject, but deny, in the same sense, one denies Holocaust or Evolution). An excellent example of what happens when you're a Quranist is these wrong interpretations that conflicts with those already accepted by prophet Muhammad himself, such as Isa is in fact Jesus and who said this? Muhammad, but Quranists reject Hadith and quite possibly even the founder of Islam himself, therefore, who are you to understand? That's right, nobody, therefore you can come with the most stupidest heretical interpretations. And surely, I have a hard time accepting the second coming of Jesus Christ, but if you do an examination, you would find out the Ahadith on those subjects are unreliable, but not the whole Hadith.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMDo you have the right or prerequisite to call yourself Muslim? Are you sound? Do you not follow a sectarian doctrine blindly? Do you even know what Quran teaches?
Yes, yes, no, yes. I will ask you the same thing here, do you?
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMWhat is heresy? A human term to curse someone who chooses a way?
No, s human term to describe someone choosing a blatantly wrong of faith accepted to not just be a minor differences of opinion, but a man who could very well be of another religion. If Muhammad was a Christian, he would be a heretic due to his Arian opinions in regards to the consensual interpretation. Not "a way," but a wrong way. Therefore, do not consider yourself Muslim, because you're not, you're a kaffir with Western background that is repelled by false images of Islam and tries to moderate it.
Quote from: Man of Faith on April 01, 2015, 01:19:49 PMCall me stupid, heretic or whatever else you are about to say because that only shows how un-muslim you are and how little you understand about the spirituality conveyed by Quran. You focus on a worldly doctrine and it is what you will get. The Jinnah is appealing to you, watch out so you do not get Jehennah.
This is conjecture and a personal opinion scattered on me. Get the hell off me. I do understand the profound spirituality in Quran, which is why I reject materialist interpretation that Adam is 60 cubits tall or that he even existed, instead I see the parables and esoteric aspect of Quran, but this does not interfere with the Sunnah, also known as the way of life of a true Muslim, how to understand with context and learn about the history of Quran. I do not focus on an earthly doctrine instead I focus on a worldly or heavenly doctrine, I am a spiritual person, but I have an objection to stupid Quranists that thinks this is not possible without Hadith.

You're dismissed, debunked, refuted. Goodbye.

reel

O Hadithete
You haven't proved that http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607369.msg365850#msg365850 have verses with different meanings. I am waiting for it. Come on, don't run away. Show it to us.


QuoteI am tired of your apologetic excuses, you're on a lost cause when you cannot refute the fact that Quran was transmitted to you by the same companions that transmitted you the Hadith.
What do you mean by transmitted? Orally huh?
But it seems Quran tells us that the Prophet actually wrote it all down. To you, its a "garbage" book. Therefore, its verses might not make much difference in your opinion. Yet I am pasting them below.
These are tales from the past that he wrote down. They are being dictated to him day and night" 25:5
Read, and your Lord, Most Generous, teaches by means of the pen 96:3-4

And it looks like there was no need for putting the Quran verses together.
And thus We have sent down to you the Qur'an. And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture believe in it. And among these [people of Makkah] are those who believe in it. And none reject Our verses except the disbelievers.29:47

QuoteFeel free to watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Susl-QCNCjA
Ah, this one video proved that Nouman Ali is a pure con artist. He was refuted here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHvQhbIchaI
Quote
if you reject hadith as a fabrication of a mad man's imagination, then you should do the same to the Quran if you don't want to look like a stupid hypocrite.
Nah, actually Quran has enough evidence that its directly from Almighty Allah. Those who see god in scholars will never be able to see it.

Now please, refute http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607369.msg365850#msg365850
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

mmkhan

Quote from: Hadithete on April 05, 2015, 02:40:51 PM
I am tired of your apologetic excuses, you're on a lost cause when you cannot refute the fact that Quran was transmitted to you by the same companions that transmitted you the Hadith. This is a fact, not an opinion that you can disagree with.

Please prove it!


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

Hadithete

Quote from: reel on April 05, 2015, 11:58:10 PM
O Hadithete
You haven't proved that http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607369.msg365850#msg365850 have verses with different meanings. I am waiting for it. Come on, don't run away. Show it to us.
Take it in context, you fool. It's clear that it says something else in context, but non-Muslims likes to quote Quran out of context to let it suit their agendas: https://primaquran.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/does-the-holy-quran-instruct-us-to-disregard-all-hadith/

The only proof is to  read, go and read the full thing.
Quote from: reel on April 05, 2015, 11:58:10 PMWhat do you mean by transmitted? Orally huh?
But it seems Quran tells us that the Prophet actually wrote it all down. To you, its a "garbage" book. Therefore, its verses might not make much difference in your opinion. Yet I am pasting them below.
These are tales from the past that he wrote down. They are being dictated to him day and night" 25:5
Read, and your Lord, Most Generous, teaches by means of the pen 96:3-4
You shouldn't be too stupid to accept history confirming us the fact that it was written down by Uthman, a companion. The garbage book here is not Quran, but your interpretations of the Quran; which, of course, are not accepted by the majority of the scholars. Once again you are quoting out of context, you disgusting kaffir, do you not have any dignity? God clearly says that one who misrepresents him will be taking to Hellfire, the same did Muhammad say about fabricated Ahadith.

Have you read the Quran or you just a dishonest liar, the Paul of Islam? 25:5 clearly says that the KUFFAR THINKS MUHAMMAD WROTE DOWN THE QURAN, in your own words, you think Quran was written by him, therefore you're a kaffir with support from Quran.

THE REAL VERSE AND NOT THE FAKE QURANIST VERSE: And they say, "Legends of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."

Can't you just admit to be on the wrong path and start to accept Hadith again and become a good Muslim?

The other chapter does not talk about the Prophet, you are a liar.
Quote from: reel on April 05, 2015, 11:58:10 PMAnd it looks like there was no need for putting the Quran verses together.
And thus We have sent down to you the Qur'an. And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture believe in it. And among these [people of Makkah] are those who believe in it. And none reject Our verses except the disbelievers.29:47
Ah, this one video proved that Nouman Ali is a pure con artist. He was refuted here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHvQhbIchaI Nah, actually Quran has enough evidence that its directly from Almighty Allah. Those who see god in scholars will never be able to see it.
You're a stupid kaffir and the video is wrong. You're dismissed.

Hadithete

Quote from: mmkhan on April 06, 2015, 05:13:40 AM
Please prove it!


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
That's common knowledge, go and read Islamic history from every orientalist and you would know.