"Al Tawratu" is another name for "Al Quran"

[Nonmushrik]

Peace.

"Al Tawratu" means the law, it's simply another name for the Quran. A Muslim would hold the Quran and say "this is the law, the Tawratu!". It's not referring to fabricated books of Jews and Christians.

Ponder this, 136 times "Musa" is mentioned in the Quran never with the word "Tawratu" next to him, nor in any same text either, please correct me if I'm wrong.

According to Surah 5:44 the prophets in plural judged by the Tawratu including Moses and Muhammad, he was the "khatama al nabiyina" correct? Why are you disregarding him? Quranically the Tawratu was revealed after Abraham 3:65.

In Surah 5:43, People are coming to Muhammad for judgement, their rebuked and told they have the Tawratu, why are you coming to Muhammad? Sunnis and some people who "reject Hadith" who still use Sunni Hadith explain this by some Jews coming to Muhammad for a stoning law, this helps Sunnis with their fabrication of stoning, matched the puzzles? Show me where it says "Jews" only came to him, not just people in general?

When you read this text "Tawratu" in context of being sent down before, that was the law given to that prophet at his time it's not talking about other peoples books.

When you read it as in today and as in Surah 5:43, it refers to the Quran and we are to believe that "Tawratu" is the Quran, simply another name which means "The Law".

I'm sure your all aware how Sunni explain away the "Injila & Tawratu" to Jews and Christians, yes by Hadith.

Peace.

[Man of Faith]

Salaam,

Tawrateh was not revealed until after Abraham. The text can show that. It was not available then. And it was available before the advent of Quran, the text can show this too.

9:111 has Torateh, Injeel and Quran mentioned altogether, so Quran can hardly be a synonymous word.

Torateh is similar to 'instruction' in ancient Hebrew and in this revelation was the decree which is a separation/distinction (al-furqan) between Muslims (sound of mind) and evildoers (broken souls). Quran states it similarly. Injeel and Quran are not separate decrees but elaborates on the same. We are all followers of the torateh still in the third millennium A.D.

I am still researching on the exact meaning of the word 'Quran' independent of sectarian bias, but according to indications the word appears to mean similar to 'The Testament' quite plainly. I have doubts about the common argument that Quran comes from the root called ق ر ا qaf-ra-alif, but I would argue it comes from ق ر ر qaf-ra-ra which has many definitions according to the lexicon and "something firm" is among them and many of them have a similar connotation. It surely is "The Testament" though ('Innate Letter Meaning' method: "ق Express ر Constitution(ally) ا Be ن Integrity. I need to cross-check the strong theory for testing before I can say for sure, but it would explain the incoherent "Recitation at dawn, recitation at dawn is witnessed" translation most likely.

We should avoid using alif as the foundation of a word root in Arabic. It is not really an independent letter in most contexts but more like an assisting one. I have noticed this in words like امن amen where it is rather the prefix ا and من from root م ن ن.

As for injeel, people ought to take a look at the root ن ج و which I suspect is related to the word Al-Anjeel with the ي ya a form of و waw and the ل lam to have a grammatical significance. ن ج و has definitions according to Lane's: To be saved, delivered, rescued, escape, go free. Is not Jesus given the description as 'savior' by many Christians?

Injeel is supposed to be a relayed way of salvation which the final ل lam in the word is supposed to mark (lam as an affix is supposed to say similar to 'to'). It is of semitic origin, the word, compared to what some people say.
By the revelation of Injeel there was a wave of Gnosticism even if it probably turned into hypocrisy as usual with sectarianism.

Everyone pious wanted to show off their piety, failing that it should not be for public display. Gnosticism is alive also today but people may have forgotten what it stands for. Buddhists are often very good gnostics. It is not negative to be a gnostic. Jesus praised that even as he was not competing with John The Baptist. It probably started with the prophecies of Isaiah, the main foreteller of عيسى, the Messiah. The concept of gnosticism had already come, but Jesus did thoroughly teach it.

Jesus gave very good hints what it takes to be absorbed into the realm or "Kingdom" as he metaphorically put it or Allah as Quran puts it and the Transition (الاخرة al-akharateh) and the resulting dissolution, the permanent separation of the body (jinn) from the spirit (nas). Quran speaks of exactly what Jesus speaks of in the Gospel testimonies written down by his early followers. What I say can be found in a reinterpreted Quran using truthful deciphering.

To be honest I am not entirely sure about "instruction" for torateh either, because the root of this word is likely و ر ى with the ت ta in the beginning only a prefix just as the final suffix ة. This root means "allude equivocally" or "ambiguous" according to Lane's, i.e. it is something that will either mislead a person or lead them right, which is right on spot what it is, especially when Quran mentions al-furqan (distinction/separation) between people and it is just what it is. Either Torateh leads people astray or it leads them straight because they could see the spiritual level of guidance with them instead of dogmatic rules.

I have said for some time that that list is open to interpretation and Jesus clearly showed it can be elaborated upon. To me it seems Torateh could even refer to "Riddle". Yet the list of commandments are very straightforward albeit not always easy for som people as to why they should be followed every one of them.

If people referred to Towrateh as that it is clear that it cannot translate as Law but more spiritual guidance, open to interpretation and not meant as sectarian dogma and strict doctrines.

GOD has made sure from the start that people tailor their approach themselves towards an ulterior goal. The one who uses one line of the decree in an abusive way has already failed I would say.

First of all, a majority have even failed on the first and second line of the Towrateh. The second reads: "Take no image of Heaven or Earth and worship it", yet a grand majority treat ALLAH as a separate entity for worship. The first and second line reveals that you should tread (immerse yourself) in the image of ALLAH and not make a separation.
Another they have failed is to understand why GOD said to Moses: "I am who am I" (Elah but in first person) and "Go to the 'Children of Israel' and say 'I am' (ALi but in first person) has sent you".

Salam

[Farabi]

On the quran, if you had doubt about it, ask anyone who read the bible if you dont understand it

[Furqan]

Salam brother MoF

Regarding meaning Quran root ق ر ا
Q 10:94 فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ   zoom
So if you are in doubt of what We have revealed to you, then ask those who (have been) reading the Book before you. Verily, has come to you the truth from your Lord, so (do) not be among the doubters

[Aladin from Azra tribe]

Kitab is only one. 7 + Qur'an were sent to the people and all of them have their name, which will point their most important property. That's why one of them is called the Zabur, one is the Zikr, one is the Tawrat and we have the Qur'an. But all of them are all of these names/properties. All of them are Zikr, for example, or (Tawrat) Law or Qur'an, just one of each is Az-Zikr, At-Tawrat, Al-Qur'an...

They all contain "10 commandments" as the main guidance and all of 'iman is same in them, just some laws are different for different "ummah" to which it was sent. This is interesting because Allah swt promissed that He won't accept any deen but Islam, so any deed which is not for Islam probably won't be accepted as salihat. On the other hand, even if some unbeliever does anything for Islam that deed will be of his salihat. And, we have to remember that "Judgement Day" is "Jawm-id-deen" (Day of deen), when our deeds will be measured.

We have to know also that any of books written by men (as Talmud, Gospels and hadith) are not Kitab.

Do previous revalations exist? Yes, there are no two Kitabs, Kitab is one, so everthing from previous revalations is in Kitab we have, the Qur'an.

Allah's bless and salam.

[Man of Faith]

Salam brother MoF

Regarding meaning Quran root ق ر ا
Q 10:94 فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ   zoom
So if you are in doubt of what We have revealed to you, then ask those who (have been) reading the Book before you. Verily, has come to you the truth from your Lord, so (do) not be among the doubters

I am of a different opinion concerning ق ر ا and opt for another lexical definition which is manifest or collection. So your passage speaks of who was manifest al-kateb. It means also it must not be a physical book. I tend to see it as record or even know-how, see knowledge. من قبلك could depending on the context mean from before/among you, i.e. it must not be a time frame, and it is similar to other languages.


Considering that the phrase might say "manifestation of knowledge among you". If it misfits it is likely that the surrounding translation is weak as well, as is the typical case during my Quran reinterpretation project. The ي in Qara'un implies something similar to "will" (conditional) as a cause.

Al-kateb is something abstract and is more general than a specific book.

Your quoted verse also contains translation issues, quite severe ones. Without investigating your quoted passage more than briefly it speaks of those who receive authentic information from your Rabb. It is referring to the person whom holds a kind of lesson/lecture towards a crowd and gives help on how to reply, probably to criticism as when you teach about true information from Rabb you run into many problems due to all the disinformation in the world fed to the poor gullible people who believe whatever they hear without due contemplation.

What I have learned is that you can see in a person if he/she is real or not. The relayed information must be logically sound and the lore he/she spreads cannot be portraying an emotional being that behaves in a primitive way. And if the person considers wealth of this world even to be of the slightest importance he/she is not authentic. And if he/she considers popularity or hierarchy (the fact he/she is whatever he/she claims to be) to be important he/she is also not authentic. And of course the person learns to suppress the animalistic instincts because it is important for anyone who grasps the true face of existence. He/she will never incite towards anything which is retribution or to defeat. He/she will pity his enemies or enemies of others and not pick sides.

Be well
Amenuel

[Man of Faith]

Kitab is only one. 7 + Qur'an were sent to the people and all of them have their name, which will point their most important property. That's why one of them is called the Zabur, one is the Zikr, one is the Tawrat and we have the Qur'an. But all of them are all of these names/properties. All of them are Zikr, for example, or (Tawrat) Law or Qur'an, just one of each is Az-Zikr, At-Tawrat, Al-Qur'an...

They all contain "10 commandments" as the main guidance and all of 'iman is same in them, just some laws are different for different "ummah" to which it was sent. This is interesting because Allah swt promissed that He won't accept any deen but Islam, so any deed which is not for Islam probably won't be accepted as salihat. On the other hand, even if some unbeliever does anything for Islam that deed will be of his salihat. And, we have to remember that "Judgement Day" is "Jawm-id-deen" (Day of deen), when our deeds will be measured.

We have to know also that any of books written by men (as Talmud, Gospels and hadith) are not Kitab.

Do previous revalations exist? Yes, there are no two Kitabs, Kitab is one, so everthing from previous revalations is in Kitab we have, the Qur'an.

Allah's bless and salam.

Quran states no two books because Kateb is an adjective rather than an object. If you have al-kateb then you have it and if you have it not you do not have it. It is like saying you have knowledge or not.

It is correct that there are ten directives which is the fundamental core of our faith. Beyond them is only help on how to uphold them, but not one more or one less of directives. After that is recommendations such as not to eat pork or already dead animals' meat. It is not goodly to eat pork and whatever else is not 'haram' to you. Quite obvious given the light of human science today, but perhaps not 1000 years ago to a primitive man.

Be well
Amenuel

[Aladin from Azra tribe]

I wouldn't agree that humans ever been "primitive". There were/are primitive communities, such as in UK/Scandinavia when Romans came to them, or in Pacific, America and some parts of Africa/Australia/Asia, but it was/is mostly temp., mostly as punishment.
People used different tools then nowadays, but it's hard to judge if it was worse or better. If we look at any aspect of life and culture from any period of history and compare it with today we won't find that we're in any advance, mostly we're worse.
It's only satanic influence on us "ana khayrun minh" (I'm better then him), and we are told by Satan that we're better then others, mostly all others. Going to other extremity is "ana khayrun minh" too, as Hasan al-Basri was searching for a worse person then him. We're what we are, and we should see everthing in its reality, including ourselves.
Another influence (which is also satanic) is TV, or Hollywood + Walt Disney & Co., if you like. This sihr is producing weird images of the reality in our mind.

Related with topic... we should know that these "primitive men" (at least some of them) had 'ilm of Qur'an and it was obvious, but now even if there's anybody with that knowledge, it's not obvious. Their sutuation didn't change until they all turned away from Qur'an (done hijra).
In my research about Dhulqarnayn I've found that all described in Kahf about him was on Cyprus and it's very interesting that Cyprus was the only place (island) in Mediteran which was not conquered by Arabs, even it's their neighbourhood (Arabs conquered Malta, Sicilia and Corsica woth smaller islands). I've concluded that they knew about Cyprus and Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj captured there.

I already said that there's only one Kitab, but revalation and Kitab is not same. That's why all revalation are "min Kitabi" (from Kitab). If any of revalations is taken in totality it's Kitab also, but any part of it is "min Kitab".

Allah's bless and salam.

[Man of Faith]

If those are not primitive it means they have not listened to the flesh too much, but in general most humans let themselves be susceptible to the instinct in their ignorance. Primitive or not is not related to the time in history and that I did not imply, but people were more uneducated or lacked knowledge that we have today. This is what I implied.

Kateb is something quite general, like I wrote an adjective.

Be well
Amenuel

[Aladin from Azra tribe]

Yes, you implied time in history when you said 1000 yrs ago. I wouldn't mind if you said 10, 100 or 500 yrs ago but 1000 yrs ago humanity was at the peak of the science ever in history, including today. Today we have science separated, where the most of the science is "theoretical science", which is nothing then a set of lies. All but this is real science.
1000 years ago people knew more of the Qur'an and they used all of its light, while we're using just a visible Qur'anic light of its spectrum. We're (as humanity) so far from constant Light, which is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth.

Sorry for arguing, I just love the scientific people from this period of our history.

Allah's bless and peace.