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No Elephants in the Quran

Started by Pazuzu, November 09, 2014, 08:10:08 AM

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Pazuzu

Peace, huruf.

Very well said.

What I keep trying to say (and keep getting misunderstood) is that the meaning of words in the Quranic language does not necessarilly conform to the colloquial, common meanings we know and use, nor do the rules of grammar / punctuation / articulation invented long after the Quran, have any authority over its text.

For example, The word "SIKKEEN" used in the story of Joseph (surah 12) does not mean KNIFE. I will make a thread about this subject soon, to show that the wife of Azeez Misr did not give her female guests KNIVES so they could cut their hands when they saw the handsomness of Joseph. This is totally absurd, out of context, and based on a misunderstanding of the term "SIKKEEN", because they want to impose their current understanding of the term on the Quranic text itself.  The same logic can be applied to the words "Tayr" (birds?) and Jinn (Demons?).

Just because FIL refers to elephant in your daily language, doesn't mean the Quran meant it this way.

QuoteWhat is your enmity with Persians? There were many Arabic linguists who were Persian and Sibawayh is called the best Arab linguist. What were the Arabs doing? ask yourself.

I don't have enmity against Persian people. My enmity is against the TAGHUUT of Persia, and the so-called "ULEMA" who lived in his courts, just as I have enmnity towards the murdering, deceiving, hypocrite dogs, like Muawiya and Hajjaj (the Arab Taghuut). 

My reference to Sibawayh was meant to make you understand that the grammar rules he invented cannot be used as the authority over a Quranic text. The language of the Quran cannot be bound by the parameters of linguistic aids that were used by people of distant, future generations, to help them vocalize it.

As for the so-called "Arabs",  90% don't understand the Quran anyway.


QuotePut aside your racism.

You call me a racist, eventhough I do not even believe that the term 'Arabi refers to a race. How ironic!

The so-called "Arabs" of today hijacked that term ''Arabi" from the Quran, just because they happen to speak a language that sounds "similar" to its text, and arrogantly proclaimed themselves as the ones being addressed...


Baseless accusations.

mmkhan

Quote from: Pazuzu on November 19, 2014, 10:06:33 AM
As for the so-called "Arabs",  90% don't understand the Quran anyway.[/size]

Peace,

I disagree with the above statement.
As per my own personal experience 99% [not 90%] of so called Arabs don't understand alQuraan.

You may not believe, when I visited masjid al nabwi in Madina there is something written in Arabic inside the mosque on an arc. I told the person who was with me that this is not the aayat of alQuraan. He didn't agree with me and called so called mullas and mutawwas almost 18 people, who said, we don't know, it might be the aayat of alQuraan or hadith.

From those 18 people some were giving dars [lecture] to the groups of people in the masjid itself after Juma prayer. I was really surprised to see the response from them. They don't even know whether that is the aayat from alQuraan or hadith. :brickwall:

Finally a big mulla was called by all of these dars givers who gave juma khutba that day, he came and confirmed that it is not the aayat of alQuraan but it is the hadith. :brickwall:


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

mmkhan

Quote from: huruf on November 18, 2014, 11:06:15 AM
Sura 105 concerning ashab Al-fil has the same formulation " a lam tara" excatly as the speech in sura al Fajr, 89, where several peoples and rulers of the past are remembered as being destroyed or humbled just as the people of Al fil, in both cases it is stated "a lam tara".

I have not seen myself (lam ara) that that verb is used exclusively for physical seeing. 

Salaam

Salaam,

Thanks. I will look into that. But still I believe that ara and tara is derived from the same root and refers to physical seeing with an eye.

I will go through with the details you mentioned and will come back inshaAllah.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

es

Salaam,

Quote from: mmkhan on November 19, 2014, 10:49:05 AM
Peace,

I disagree with the above statement.
As per my own personal experience 99% [not 90%] of so called Arabs don't understand alQuraan.

You may not believe, when I visited masjid al nabwi in Madina there is something written in Arabic inside the mosque on an arc. I told the person who was with me that this is not the aayat of alQuraan. He didn't agree with me and called so called mullas and mutawwas almost 18 people, who said, we don't know, it might be the aayat of alQuraan or hadith.

From those 18 people some were giving dars [lecture] to the groups of people in the masjid itself after Juma prayer. I was really surprised to see the response from them. They don't even know whether that is the aayat from alQuraan or hadith. :brickwall:

Finally a big mulla was called by all of these dars givers who gave juma khutba that day, he came and confirmed that it is not the aayat of alQuraan but it is the hadith. :brickwall:


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Wow, that's so interesting.

huruf

Quote from: mmkhan on November 19, 2014, 10:51:09 AM
Salaam,

Thanks. I will look into that. But still I believe that ara and tara is derived from the same root and refers to physical seeing with an eye.

I will go through with the details you mentioned and will come back inshaAllah.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan

Of course it is from the same root. It is the same verb, first person and second person.

But the "a lam tara" apears in both suras in exactly the same description of past great kingdoms or peoples that were obliterated. It is the verb ra'a, which means to see but which in those two cases, obviously does not mean something that is saeen materially with the eyes, since it is referring to the phenonmenon of the obliteration of past civilisations or societies. Obviously the person addressed did not see it with his eyes, but sees it with the mind.

Salaam

sword of tashayyu

Muawiya and Hajjaj (the Arab Taghuut)


One point i agree with you 100%. The enemies of my Master Ali (alaihisalam)
And Allah sufficed the believers in their fight through Ali bin Abi Talib...

Arman

Quote from: sword of tashayyu on November 20, 2014, 03:45:10 AM
Muawiya and Hajjaj (the Arab Taghuut)


One point i agree with you 100%. The enemies of my Master Ali (alaihisalam)

Wow! So you do acknowledge Ali to be your Master! with a Capital "M"!
Perhaps that's quite natural - I just didn't get to hear someone say this so explicitly before.

May I ask, what is your take on the below verse?

Quote
3:64 Say, ?O! Fraternity of the book - (let us) come to a common term between us and between you ? that we do not be slave to (anyone) except Allah and that we do not associate any partners with Him, and that some of us do not take the rest as masters (arbaban) from beside Allah.? Then if they turn away ? then say, ?Bear witness that we are submissive (muslimun).?

(My personal translation, cross checking recommended.)

- Would you say here "arbaban" means something different than "masters", or perhaps this verse only applies for the Jews and Christians? I am just curious.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

sword of tashayyu

Ameer al Mumineen Ali bin Abi Talib (AS) being my Master is not the same with the Mastership of Allah the Lord of the Lords. The Quranic terminology here is Rubibiyah from the word ?Rab?. I never called my Imam as Rab but rather Sayedi or Mawla.
Refer to Surah 5:55

Certainly your MASTER is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Quran 5:55-56)

Guardian and Master being used. Allah is my Master and to him I worship but a slave of a person (ie Muslim) is not allowed to pray to his master.
And Allah sufficed the believers in their fight through Ali bin Abi Talib...

Arman

Salamun Alaikum.

5:55 uses the word "wali" - which I would usually translate as Guardian / Patron. But I guess ... how we translate different words can vary from person to person.

We can have many guardians / patrons (Wali) - but we should have only one Master (Rabb). To me that means our conscience and intellect - which is our direct gift from and obligation to Allah is inviolable - because Allah is our only Master. With that being said - we can have guardians and patrons who can guide us, help us and inspire us to stay on right course. As long as this understanding is correct - I guess choice of word hardly matters.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

hicham9

The Quranic term wly (ولي) simply means: ally, supporter
The Quranic term for guardian, protector is: nṣyr (نصير)


Quote from: sword of tashayyu on November 21, 2014, 02:46:14 AM
... I never called my Imam as Rab but rather Sayedi ...

What you fail to understand is that QA: rab (رب) = MSA: sayyed (سيد)




SLM
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.