Author Topic: ALL SECTS ARE LOST  (Read 7013 times)

Arman

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 01:00:29 AM »
Belief will not save anyone.

... but faith will.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Zulf

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2014, 03:29:11 PM »
Salam brother Zulf.

Thanks for your thoughtful response as always. My understanding of Deen and Ummah is mostly aligned with yours. For Deen, you have used the word "approach", I prefer the word "resolution" - but more or less the concepts seem to be similar.

However for the term "Millat" - the way you have explained it actually sounds synonymous with "religion". Your description actually didn't do a very good job in drawing a clear line of demarcation between the two. I believe Millat is indeed best translated as Religion. And on Millat the Qur'an's point of view is very clear - we are commanded to disregard the millat of yahudi, nasara etc. (i.e. all off-shoot sects) and uphold the Millat of Abraham. Furthermore, the Qur'an demands the faithful to stay united as a Ummah and command mankind towards fair dealing and forbid from barbarity.

However Qur'an assures that even those who do follow other millats (yahudi, nasara etc.) are entitled to reward from their Master - if they believe in Allah, believe in the last day and act righteously. In other words they can be successful in spite of their religion, not because of their religion.

So, perhaps you may have some reason to rethink your statement "I am pro-God, and anti-religion". May I suggest "I am pro-God, and I follow Abraham's religion"? Just a suggestion ? after all, there is no compulsion in deen (approach/ resolution).

Best regards,
Arman

Peace Arman,

Frankly speaking, I have hardly ever pondered on what millat is or could be. I know that it occurs in "millat ibrahim", but other than that, it is very un-researched by me.

Due to the above, I guess it's not very odd that my "definition" of millat is quite fuzzy and not well defined in any sense. The thing that makes me wonder what it really is, is the very occurrence along side the name of Ibrahim. I find it hard to see what Ibrahim's religion would be. Did he follow an already existing religion? If not, then how it is a religion, with all the structure and body a religion should have (in my mind at least)? It does indeed makes sense when you read millat yahuud etc, as you point out... but what do we take millat Ibrahim as?

If I say that I follow Ibraham's religion, then how would I explain that to people? People would in 99% of the cases understand it as yet another religion, or sect, and I would therefore fail to convey what I want to say. It's not so much about words, but rather about an idea. When I say "pro-God, anti-religion" I really mean that I'm against the institutions that are called religions, simply because they claim to follow God while their actions tell another story. I'm against the senseless tales invented by man, which are then attributed to God. So calling something Ibraham's religion would just paint a picture of a religion like all other religions of today. Religion to me is a belief system, and with 'belief' I here mean blind faith, where 'blind' here is the defining word. It's blind because people don't evolve into their religion, they adopt it, or usually, they are born into it. A religion is not a spiritual conclusion that you grow into, rather it is a given home base, a starting point, a ready package, which you then work hard to defend, for no other reason than that it is your home base. You defend it because you have invested your identity into it.

You're most welcome with more analytical remarks. I appreciate it.
Kind regards
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Arman

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2014, 08:55:46 PM »
Dear Brother Zulf:

It would be my pleasure to discuss with you on this further. Actually I posted a rather elaborate post on related topic here: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606914.msg357650#msg357650
In case you didn?t go through this earlier ? I suggest you take a look ? it may have some ?points to ponder? for you.

In that post I touched upon my thoughts on ?Religion of Abraham? (Millat-i-Abraham). Let me elaborate here a bit. I believe the basic premises of ?Religion of Abraham? (Millat-i-Abraham) is laid out in verses 2:125-130. Let?s discuss these verses. I am using my personal translations below, but do feel free to cross-check. The best is to look at the original Arabic verses word-by-word.

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2:125   And as We assign the house (as) a resort for mankind and (of) security; and take from Abraham?s standpoint a salaat ritual; and We made a covenant with Abraham and Ishmael to cleanse My house for the circumambulators and the (devotedly) secluded ones and those who bow down and prostrate.

Please note first, I have translated ?maquam-i-Ibrahim? as ?standpoint of Abraham? (as opposed to the traditional understanding of a stone). Qur?an also talks about Maquam of Noah to refer to standpoint of Noah (10:71).

Also note, I have translated the term ?Musallah? as ?Salaat Ritual? (as opposed to the traditional understanding of a salaat place). My translation is also supported by Lane. Per my humble understanding:

Salaat = Respect
Musallah = A Ritual for Salaat = A Ritual for invoking Respect
Musalli = A Salaat Ritualist = A Person who practices ritual for invoking Respect

With the translation clarified, let?s take a look at the content of the verse. The verse contains 3 main points:

1) Allah assigned ?the House? as a resort of security for mankind.

No physical house can be durable or large enough to provide mankind security. This is understandably referring to a spiritual or conceptual ?safe heaven?. See the linkage with verse 2:19-20. The kafirs are compared with people wondering in a storm ? not knowing where to belong rushing towards the flash of light from every new ideological development ? only to come back disheartened. In the contrast Allah assigned a safe heaven in the beliefs and practices of Abraham ? a ?House? for mankind that can give them security.

2) Hence we should take a salaat ritual from Abraham?s stand point.

What was Abraham?s standpoint? Abraham?s standpoint was a unequivocal rejection of all form of association of partners with God. He submitted exclusively to the ?Master of the heavens and the Earth? by upholding his conscience and intellect. So, from this point of view taking a ?A Ritual for invoking Respect? towards the ?Master of the Universe? is legitimate and even encourage-able.

3) Abraham and Ismael were instructed to cleanse the ?the House? for those who perform tawaf, ruku, sizdah etc.

God selected Abraham and his son to purify the conceptual ?safe heaven? by removing vain worship of idols and deities and ?angels? and ?older generations? etc. ? so that those who seek spiritual solace in rituals like tawaf, ruku, sizdah etc. can dedicate their rituals to the One who really deserve such rituals ? The One and Only God, the Master of the Universe.

There is hardly any doubt that Abraham, indeed set up physical house to pray to God ? but the location of such physical house is of little spiritual significance. What is of real significance is the spiritual safe house that he managed to clean-up for his future generation.

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2:126   And as Abraham said, ?My Master, assign this land as secured and provide its fraternity with the fruits ? who (would) have faith in Allah and the last day among them.? He said, ?And whoever would repress (faith), then I allow him enjoy a little. (But) later, I compel him to the suffering of fire and vile is (such) a destination!?

In this verse, Abraham is praying for the inhabitants of the land where the house is located. In spiritual sense, he is seeking protection to Allah to all those who would be accepting the safe heaven that he created and live around it. God, however, clarifies that even living within the vicinity of the house there will be people who would repress their faith in their inviolable relationship with their creator. For these people the enjoyment will be temporary.

With this verse, the Qur?an is limiting the scope of ?safe heaven? created by Abraham. Those who would take shelter under Abraham?s standpoint would only be saved if they uphold their faith in their inviolable obligation towards their creator (which is to live a life upholding the sense of right and wrong God has gifted us).

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2:127   And as Abraham raised the foundation of the house, along with Ishmael: ?Our Master, accept (this) from us. Indeed You are You - the Listener, the Knowledgeable.?

2:128   ?Our Master! Also (please) assign (both of) us as submissive to You and from our offspring a community submissive to You and show us our rites , and relent to us ? Indeed You are You - The Relenting, the Kind.?

2:129   ?Our Master! Also (please) animate within them a messenger from among them to recite to them Your signs and to teach them the book and the wisdom and to purify them. Indeed You are You ? the Almighty, the Wise.?

These three verses highlight the key components of the religion of Abraham in the form of a prayer:

- Firstly God is identified as the Listener, the Knowledgeable; The Relenting, the Kind and the Almighty, the Wise. These adjectives invariably portray a Personified image of God. It emphasizes that the God who created all people with their individual attributes ? cannot be a mere indifferent abstract force. God must be someone who can listen to the prayers of His creation, who knows everything, has power over everything and above all Kind and Relenting.

- Secondly, The idea of a ?Community? (Ummah) is proposed. There is an underlying assumption that entire mankind would probably not take shelter under the safe haven of Abraham ? but Abraham wished for a community which would take such shelter and strive together to be submissive (i.e. to be submissive to God by upholding their moral senses).

- Thirdly, Abraham seeks guidance from God to show ?us? appropriate ?rituals? (manasikan). This means Abraham endorsed community oriented rituals to invoke the respect of God.

- Fourthly, Abraham seeks guidance from God to animate messengers to recite to his future generation the verses of Allah and to guide them with the book and the wisdom.

So taking these together we can outline the following four key attributes of religion of Abraham:

-   Faith in personalized attributes of God.
-   Emphasis on submitting to God as a community
-   Invoking respect to God through community oriented rituals and
-   Faith in the messengers and holy scriptures.

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2:130   And who will opt out of the religion of Abraham except who fools his (own) soul? And certainly We have chosen him in the world and indeed, in the hereafter, he is surely amongst the righteous.

This verse provides God?s attestation to the ?Religion of Abraham.? Very important to note that it is not saying that this is the only path to reach God ? rather emphasizes that those who are already under ?Religion of Abraham? would be foolish to leave it to seek enlightenment elsewhere? like a foolish person who would leave the protection of a safe house in a rainstorm. And the Qur?an confirms not only Abraham was chosen in the world (being a key figure in all Abrahamic religions), but also in the hereafter he was among the righteous. So, taking shelter under Millat-i-Ibrahim can be a safer root towards leading a righteous life.

Sorry for being too lengthy in the discussion. Brother ? if you have accepted the four key attributes of Abrahamic Religion as discussed above, you have in turn accepted a form of ?religion?. It may be kind of self-contradictory to say I believe in personalized attributes of God, I believe in Qur?an as divine text ? but I am ?anti-religion?. I cordially invite you to ponder over the above verses of Qur?an. Perhaps you will get more wisdom out of it than I did.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Man of Faith

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2014, 12:02:51 AM »
Ouch the conjecture feels like a needle in my eye.
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

wrkmmn

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2014, 10:16:53 AM »
Peace:

I see you have too many questions.

Is not on me to make the blind see. The information I posted is for those who are being guided by their lord, and not for those to whom their lord has allow to go astray. As for those who love conjecture, and love to fill every post on this forum with their conjecture, you are worst than the traditionalist of the old sects.
" Have you noted those who only know part of the scripture, and when invited to adopt God's law, they turn away in aversion?.... That is because they are deceived in their faith by their own inventions." (Quran: 3:23-24)


"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (5:65).



"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118).

10:108-109Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray  against it. And I am not over you a manager."And follow what is revealed to you,  and be patient until Allah will judge. And He is the best of judges.

10:65And let not their speech grieve you. Indeed, honor [due to power] belongs to Allah entirely. He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Conjecturers, if you are not going to present any evidence from torah-quran, please, do not waste the time of the readers of my posts with your nonsense. I already know your philosophies, because you parrot them in every post of this forum.
47:14So, is he who is on clear evidence from his Lord like him to whom the evil of his work has been made attractive and they follow their [own] desires?


Leaving the conjecturers alone, and going back to the sects issue. For those who live by the traditions passed down to them by their fathers, and what their sects allow or forbid.

10:59 Say, "Have you seen what Allah has sent down to you of provision of which you have made [some] lawful and [some] unlawful?" Say, "Has Allah permitted you [to do so], or do you invent [something] about Allah ?"

May god increase our knowledge and give us some wisdom.

syyiam

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2014, 06:53:29 PM »
Salam,

Bro,sis,

dun know whether in the right section to post this but it's  quite hilarious about this happened in a country called Malaysia...."who let's the dogs out....woof woof woof wooof wooff, LOL  :brickwall:
just read the comments...how this issue become a grave matter..


https://my.news.yahoo.com/want-touch-dog-event-attempt-insult-malaysia-clerics-033158399.html


peace

Kikotsu

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2015, 02:12:05 PM »
I'm a Muslim (I follow no sect) but I know that we must be moderate .. you are so extreme ! please forgive me for my words but GOD wants us to live peacefully and with harmony with other people with different opinions .. as long as they don't hurt you , you shouldn't treat them badly

wrkmmn

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2015, 03:51:45 PM »
peace kikotsu.
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you are so extreme !

I am not extreme. I seek refuge in Allah from being of the ignorant. i am just a servant following the clear guidance of his Master.
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please forgive me for my words
I do not have to forgive you anything. May Allah forgive you, and give you understanding of the scriptures.

when you call me extreme you are not calling me, but the one who sent the words I posted here from the Qur'an.

If you read carefully I said:and deal with those who refuse to listen as is ordained to deal with the infidels.
If you think is extreme to deal with the unbelievers as the Qur'an ordains it, then do not obey it. Allah will judge in that which we differ.

I am just trying to unite the muslim community(ummah) under the true name of Submission (Islam). We all have a path to follow within the religion, and we are allow to have differences. however, calling yourself different, and creating division in the community, it is a great sin. Allah warns of a painful punishment for those who do it.  Those who do it have broken their covenant with Allah. The covenant they made when they said: we hear an obey.
5:7And remember the favor of Allah upon you and His covenant with which He bound you when you said, "We hear and we obey"; and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts.

3:105And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment.
(2:27) who break their bond with God after it has been established, and divide what God has ordained to be together, and spread corruption on earth: It is those who are the losers.


6:159 VERILY, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects ? thou hast nothing to do with them. Behold, their case rests with God: and in time He will make them understand what they were doing.
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GOD wants us to live peacefully and with harmony with other people with different opinions
har?mo?ny  (h?r′mə nē),
n., pl. -nies.
    agreement;
    accord;
    harmonious relations.
    a consistent, orderly, or pleasing arrangement of parts;
    congruity.
Synonyms : 1 . concord, unity, peace, amity, friendship.

This is not the way it is shown to me in the book of Allah. May God forgive me if I am wrong.

please, if you accuse me of something, show your evidence if you are truthful. If I am wrong, may Allah forgive me If I am being mislead by my own desires, I will thank you for correcting me.

May God increase our knowledge and give us some wisdom.

Kikotsu

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 03:13:01 AM »
peace kikotsu.
I am not extreme. I seek refuge in Allah from being of the ignorant. i am just a servant following the clear guidance of his Master. I do not have to forgive you anything. May Allah forgive you, and give you understanding of the scriptures.

when you call me extreme you are not calling me, but the one who sent the words I posted here from the Qur'an.

If you read carefully I said:and deal with those who refuse to listen as is ordained to deal with the infidels.
If you think is extreme to deal with the unbelievers as the Qur'an ordains it, then do not obey it. Allah will judge in that which we differ.

I am just trying to unite the muslim community(ummah) under the true name of Submission (Islam). We all have a path to follow within the religion, and we are allow to have differences. however, calling yourself different, and creating division in the community, it is a great sin. Allah warns of a painful punishment for those who do it.  Those who do it have broken their covenant with Allah. The covenant they made when they said: we hear an obey.
5:7And remember the favor of Allah upon you and His covenant with which He bound you when you said, "We hear and we obey"; and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts.

3:105And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment.
(2:27) who break their bond with God after it has been established, and divide what God has ordained to be together, and spread corruption on earth: It is those who are the losers.


6:159 VERILY, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects – thou hast nothing to do with them. Behold, their case rests with God: and in time He will make them understand what they were doing.har•mo•ny  (h?r′mə nē),
n., pl. -nies.
    agreement;
    accord;
    harmonious relations.
    a consistent, orderly, or pleasing arrangement of parts;
    congruity.
Synonyms : 1 . concord, unity, peace, amity, friendship.

This is not the way it is shown to me in the book of Allah. May God forgive me if I am wrong.

please, if you accuse me of something, show your evidence if you are truthful. If I am wrong, may Allah forgive me If I am being mislead by my own desires, I will thank you for correcting me.

May God increase our knowledge and give us some wisdom.

Salam Brother :)

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All sects are astray

Yes they are BUT , this doesn't mean that all of them are not a believers


GOD tells us in 2:62 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

As Muslims we know that Jewish don't follow GOD alone , they follow man made scriptures , However , GOD tells us that they will have their rewards and that is for the true Jewish Believers who TRULY BELIEVE IN GOD , so for Sunnis and Shiites who TRULY BELIEVE IN GOD , they will also have their rewards , Remember that GOD judges our deeds :

2:25 And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers flowing beneath them. Every time they receive a provision of its fruit, they say: “This is what we have been provisioned before,” and they are given its likeness. And there they will have pure mates, and in it they will abide.

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After a long time of meditating, and asking God for guidance, He has made me understand that verse 6:59 is to be taken literally. And by literally I mean literally: “nothing to do with them.” This means that all those who claim to belong to a sect should be treated just like any infidel cristian/jew/hindu/budist/atheist, or etc.

6:159 VERILY, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects – thou hast nothing to do with them. Behold, their case rests with God: and in time He will make them understand what they were doing.

You said literally ! so you must meditate in this part : their case rests with God

also GOD says :

60:8 God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.
60:9 But God does prohibit you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors.


I don't why (THE MESSAGE) Translation had translated the word (الدين) to (System)

but this is another translation :

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.


The two verses are so clear , there is no need to explain them

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Most sects do not really fear God

maybe Sects do not fear GOD , but among the people who are joining sects there are people who fear GOD and glorify him

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and allow his children to befriend only submittedones

Father : SON (8 years old) ! do not befriend Ahmed

SON : why daddy ? Ahmed is so kind , I like to play with him , he treat me as his brother , he doesn't insult or say anything bad

Father : He is Sunni and that is enough to leave him

POOR SON (Says nothing)

from your article I noticed that you used words like :

should be treated ,  A Submittedone should only , allow his children to , A Submittedone (muslim) shall not  , shall only , and deal with those who refuse to listen as

I remind you Brother :

[42:21] They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by GOD. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution.

16:116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe: “This is lawful, and that is forbidden;” that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

PLEASE NOTE : I DO NOT ACCUSE YOU OF ANYTHING , IT'S MY DUTY TO CLARIFY MY PERSPECTIVE ( FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND FROM THE QURAN )

MAY GOD GUIDE US ALL

PEACE

wrkmmn

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Re: ALL SECTS ARE LOST
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 12:08:00 PM »
peace:
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2:62 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians,
God is talking about true believers that obey the Torah, not the hypocrites you know.

Read the Qur'an as a whole and pray your lord for understanding. Do not take only verses that fit your desires.

To You your actions and to me mine.