Author Topic: New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran  (Read 1790 times)

Wakas

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New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran
« on: June 26, 2014, 12:43:24 PM »
peace all,

This is a simple, but potentially important article. If you know of any other verses please let me know.

Click: Crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran


Feedback welcome, especially corrections.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Jane

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Re: New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 04:51:48 AM »
Okay,

Quote
Theft

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall mark, cut, or cut-off their hands/means as a recompense for what they earned, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise. Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, then God will relent on him. Truly, God is Forgiving, Merciful. [5:38-39]

 :hypno:

This still sounds like it is suggesting a literal injury.

At www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm, I read

Quote
''...It is up to the society to choose one of these meanings or a combination of them depending on the severity of the crime and their ability to enforce the penalty...'' 

Hmmm I think the God probably only intends one meaning


Quote
Adultery, fornication, immorality

Those guilty of illicit sex (adultery/fornication), you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding God's system if you believe in God and the Last Day.

I thought it was just adultery?

hands/means

adultery/fornication


Over use of the '' / '' perhaps?? Lol.


Otherwise nice collection, thanks.



Peace
PEACE

huruf

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Re: New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 06:51:57 AM »
I am not sure  about the murder question. The punishments given previously, for instance, in the torah, do not necessarily are meant for the people who receive the Qur'an.

The qisas in 2.178 is not about killing anybody but about compensating, like in todays civil responsibility: it is not a punishment. but a compensation for when anybody gets killed without guilty party or independently of guilt.

4.15 . Tehre is no punishment there, rather social relief, that in fact answers something that was discussed in relation with 4.34. Women who resort to fahisha, see prostitution in order to susten themselves and their families are not the subject of punishment but the subject of relief. That is why it says collect them in the houses (as opposed to doing the street) and upkeep them till they find another way to earn their living or till death takes them. I see no punishment there. Just as there is no punishment in 4.34 but social awarreness an assitance.

4.16 is not exactly a punishment either. A legal punihsment exacts clarity not such vague thing as "annoy". Since it is the people being addressed, as I see it what is intended is that the doears get the idea that their doings are not appreciated and are adisgrace for the whole people.



I miss on the other hand, the punishment, and this is clearly a punishment and not at all vague or hinted at but clearly set, the one in 24.4, also by way of warning ll that set of ayas from 9 to 20 or so, are a clear indictment of slander and defamation particularly of women.

About theft, bearing in mind the idiomatic use of the word hand in Arabic and more precisely in the whole of Qur'an, I find it fantastic that it should  be taken in the material sense and not according to the idiomatic use, unless we take it that the thieves do not need nor are required to return the stolen property or its value. Because without hands the difficulty to earn their living or be useful to compensate is our of the question. One more I think that comes from influences straneous to the Qur'an. Like the stoning of adulterers.

Salaam 

Wakas

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Re: New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2014, 02:26:06 AM »
peace all,

Thanks for the feedback.

Please note, it is primarily a list of verses, not an analysis, as stated in the article.


Jane, generally, I am also inclined towards one meaning rather than multiple, but proving one only is another matter. To my knowledge, the word "zani" includes all types of illicit sex, regardless of marriage status of the perpetrator(s). If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it.

Huruf, Re: 2:178 I agree and that is why it is under "manslaughter" not "murder". In terms of what meaning is correct, again, see my above comment.



In future, I think it will be interesting to consider hierarchy within such a list, laws in terms of establishing a society, etc. May prove fruitful.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Jane

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Re: New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 05:27:30 AM »
To my knowledge, the word "zani" includes all types of illicit sex, regardless of marriage status of the perpetrator(s). If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it.

I do not know arabic so perhaps you are right that the definition is the same. But I was thinking the other day in response to this: 'how can the punishment be the same for doing something you had already promised NOT to do vs. something you had not YET promised not to do' i.e. when you get married and you say the vows you are presumably agreeing at that point definitely NOT to commit adultery (the line 'to forsake all others' is included in the script in Britain). If you then do not forsake all others and end up having an affair with someone else then you are like, deliberately going back on your promise. Breaking a promise by doing something bad is surely worse than just doing the something bad on it's own as the God tells us that our oaths carry additional responsibility.

Compare deliberate adultery once you are married to being seduced before you are married before you had promised anything to anyone and I do not think the punishment can be the same. 100 lashes is a hefty punisment that I think the God probably designed to cause injury or maybe death; should stupid teenagers who give in to their urges receive this punishment and possibly be killed in the same way that we might find it acceptable to put it onto two mature adults who have been married awhile then consciously choose to stray??

In Germany in olden times they apparently had a law that if a man seduced a virgin female before he married her, he then had to pay her father a ransom for effectively 'stealing her virginity'. She was not punished herself apparently - although I guess the shame would have been enough.  :-\

Also you have the problem with illicit sex involving women not already wed to anyone - what if it was actually rape? He says it was consensual of course, but she says it was forced, should they both be punished? In this case I think it should involve a court and if a jury finds it WAS forced then the verse 5:33 applies:

Quote
Yusuf Ali
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

I would say the man if found guilty should be killed if he shows no remorse and/or refuses to pay compensation to the victim. If it was found to be consensual should they still then both be punished? If yes then you have another question: at what point can we say females are old enough to be seen to have consented. I agree with huruf about it being less about punishment and more about social relief and think verse 4:15 would then apply in this case:

Quote
Yusuf Ali
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

I think this not only proves that the punisment for women having pre-marital sex cannot automatically be the same as for adultery but gives a guide as to who is to receive it. As it has been translated as 'women' and not 'females'; so presumably for under-age girls (say under 16) it cannot apply. They cannot be mature enough to understand what they are consenting to and it must then be seen as rape and therefore the man should be punished and the girl would not deserve such confinement. If it were my under-age daughter I would not be interested in punishing her as some backwards misogynistic cultures do  >:(. Rather I would consider that a crime had been commited against her and would instead focus on getting him arrested, charged and and I would seek compensation for her from him or his family, definitely.


Edit: I am inspired to create a poll for members to judge when we are at adulthood i.e. sexual maturity. This may help with how to ascribe punishment for illicit sex perhaps, God-willing.
PEACE

huruf

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Re: New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 07:38:28 AM »
I think the punishment is there so as to preclude any other form of punishment, as in some places the custom was to stone the person. Usually in any crime the testimony of two people is enough. In this case four are required. And if we believe that the zani or zaniya es somebody who engages in it voluntarily, it is obvious that what must be proved and testified satisfactorily by four people is that it was indeed voluntary without, any constrain. If that cannot be held by four witnesses nothing done. And that to have four witnesses to the fact per se and to the fact that there was no threat, no compulsion, no blaackmail, none of those things is a feat, a real feat. I do not think anybody can bring four witnesses of such a thing except where they are filming porn, but of course when people are filming porn they are not going at the same time that they allow such a thing, to go and have people witness something like that.

I am more and more convinced that the thrust of those ayas is the coming to the nest ayas from 9 to 20 or so, where slandering and defamation, particularly of women is painted in the most horrid colours.

Another point to consider is what whe Qur'an considers a married person. I think that the mere fact of having sex is such marriage. People have stoned me (figuratively) the last time I did that in this forum, but the Qur'an itself says about that that it is a mithqan ghalithan. Otherwise why would there be needed, even if only and a guide, a punishment for that. If the first time requires papers and all and if there are no papers there nothing is done, I do not see why for a next4 time with somebody else, you should be blamed for doing something without papers.

And there are many other pointers, amongst them the concepcion possibility. Is the sex that makes that not any paper. Papers don't get a woman pregnant.

The thing is that sex is taken too lightly nd to ungodly. People think that it is for them, to have them themselves such "possession, but in fact it is a gift of God, you do not go around playing and slighting God's gifts. God is the master puppet of that, not any human and certainly not any man.

With the Qur'an in our hands, why should we act s being adults and married if we are not. Finally the Qur'an puts no blackmark on divorce, quite the opposite, if done with honesty and due consideration it foresees good for the future of both. 

Salaam

Wakas

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Re: New article: crime, punishment and expiation in The Quran
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2015, 03:19:11 AM »
peace all,


In future, I think it will be interesting to consider hierarchy within such a list, laws in terms of establishing a society, etc. May prove fruitful.

The more I think about this the more probable it seems that a society, as per Quran, would be founded on the following rules/law (based on the article above), covering:

murder
manslaughter
corruption in land
proven adultery/fornication/immorality
direct abuse/harassment
usury
theft


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org