Author Topic: Will Jesus return?  (Read 4317 times)

Sweetflower87

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Will Jesus return?
« on: January 06, 2014, 03:18:44 AM »
Peace be upon you to all believers,  All praise be to God, The Lord of the universe !

Will Jesus return?

Among the most widespread teaching in the Christian religion, after the deification of Jesus, son of Mary, there are many who believed in his return, this belief was so called prophesied by himself in the Gospels and other writings before that.
It turns out that the confused Sunni and Shiite Muslims are waiting with the same impatience for the return of the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, which according to them is also prophesied in the Qur'an.

Let us now take a look at the verses that seems to predict his imminent return and try to analyze the Biblical and Quranic words that are from our ancestral beliefs, by simply using the correct logic and intelligence that God, the One who holds all knowledge, has given us to recognize the Truth.

First we will see the verses that are most commonly used to argue for his return:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Given that various religious sects include different books into their belief, makes me doubt the divine nature of some chapters, such as the Letters (epistles) of Paul and others. Therefor I will not make reference to them, as these are just conjectures.

God's word alone is a reliable support and therefore all other words cannot be taken into account in our journey towards the truth.

Let us return to the verses:

Revelations 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The coming of the Son of man is repeated several times in the New Testament, but also in the Psalms and in the book Enoch, the prophet who received revelation from God before the event of the flood of Noah. Here are a few references:

Enoch 45:3 In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.
4 In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it, and illuminate it for ever.
5 I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.

Enoch 46:1
There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days.
2 He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwelt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness.
3 This Son of man, whom you behold, shall raise up kings and the mighty from their dwelling places, and the powerful from their thrones; shall loosen the bridles of the powerful, and break in pieces the teeth of sinners.

It is remarkable that all these verses are referring to the ?Son of Man?
Using the correct logic, and knowing that Jesus was a human prophet but that he had no 'genetic father' : the example of Jesus is the same as that of Adam, why would he be called the son of 'man' repeatedly?

Furthermore, If we carefully study the Gospels, we notice another thing; when Jesus speaks of the coming of the Son of Man, he always mentioned the son of man in the third person:

Luke 24:7
Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Now look more closely at the verses below:

John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

In this verse Jesus says that we will know who he really is, why does he say that?

Was it not because the Christian belief want him to be erected as the Son of God in the end of time, then when the Son of Man will be elevated we come to realize that Jesus was only a mortal messenger who prophesied, with God?s inspiration,  the arrival of another messenger . He then continues that he does nothing of himself, but only speaks God?s revelations.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
* the word Father is not to be taken literally, besides it is not only used in speaking concerning Jesus (see Matthew 5:45)

In the following verses, we learn that the Son of Man will be authorized to judge, since it is appointed by God to be a sovereign King in His kingdom, God Be Glorified!

John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

However, in chapter 12, Jesus says that he was not sent to judge the world.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Continuing...

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

To summarize, even if someone claims to be Jesus, and he would perform miracles and wonders do not believe it, because it will be an impostor,

In the chapter of Matthew 24, Jesus warns believers not to be seduced by the many impostors who come and say they are Jesus himself, so he said clearly do not believe. So if someone comes and says he is Jesus and that we should not believe, how could it then be possible that he would teach us not to believe if Jesus would actually return?.

In fact it is not really him who teaches, it is God's system, who knows the future, who knows that this doctrine will be widespread, while the teaching here is clear that if an alleged Jesus comes to you, you should not believe.

Then, he speaks about the coming of the Son of Man that there will be a great event which also be spread widely and quickly as a lightening starting from the east going to the west. And again talks in the third person .

Continuing now in the John chapter 12, Jesus said:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

A careful reading of these verses suggests to us that this group of Jews , who were being gathered to listen to the teachings of Jesus, seemed to believe he was the Messiah prophesied in their books, so having heard that he will be lifted up from the earth, they asked him about who the Messiah will be at the end of time living forever (until the end of the world). Then look at what Jesus son of Mary said to them in verse 35:

John 12:35
: .. ?Yet a little while is the light with you ?

What can easily be noticed through his speech is that it is for this group that challenges their beliefs about the matter and wonder about who actually the son of man can be, if he is not Jesus ?

So the light was still present at that time, it must be admitted that at that time it was much easier to question what now in our present time has become a true sacred and unyielding doctrine.
Moreover it seems quite unimaginable for most Christians that the very idea that Jesus might not come back, would become a heresy !

John 7:27 However, we know where this Man is from; but when the Christ comes, no one knows where He is from.?
* christ comes from the Greek kristos = Messiah or Anointed by God

28 Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, ?You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.

In this verse, a group of Jews was surprised to know that they have knowledge of Jesus, where he comes from and who he is, as he says in
Enoch 61:10 for example, that "...the son of man will be revealed, so the son of man is still unknown"

Enoch 61:10. "Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify him who has dominion over all things, him who was concealed; for from the beginning the Son of man existed in secret, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of his power, and revealed to the elect."

Again, Jesus said in their favor saying "you know me and you know where I am",  the son of man is according to Book of Enoch and latter Scriptures, unknown to the people.

The Qur'an :
Is it written in the Qur'an that Jesus will return to earth at the end of time?
To answer this question why among the many so-called Muslim groups are led to believe in his imminent return,
let us look at the verse which is used to argue about the matter:

Speaking of Jesus, God says in Surah 43, verse 61: He is to serve as a marker for knowing the end of the world, so you can no longer harbor any doubt about it. You shall follow Me; this is the right path.

Not only Jesus was sent to prophesy of the Divine reign of the end of time but also the signs of the end of the world, but his date of birth is used today in the universal calendar allowed Rashad Khalifa (Messenger of the Covenant the covenant (Malachi 3, Sura 3:81, Sura 33:7)) to announce the date of the end of the world, through a miraculous codification of the Quran. The date of birth of Jesus proves that the calculations are correct, and thus serves as a benchmark for calculating the end of the world.

In addition, with regard to this belief among Muslims, it is in contradiction with the Quran, since God said that the Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the prophets, in other words, there cannot be another prophet coming after him, because even without further revelations after the Quran Jesus would have retained his status as a prophet if he actually would come back to us.

Quran 33:40 Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of God and the final prophet. God is fully aware of all things.

Let?s continue our reasoning and examine the genealogy:

Genealogy:
A commonly cited prophecy in the scriptures is that the believers will inherit the earth, with the coming of the Messiah, the anointed by the Lord of the Universe. God has also promised to David that the fruits of his body will be set upon the throne:

Psalms 132
11 The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.

In Revelation 5 we have a confirmation that the descendant of David is the one who can only manage to loose the seals thereof:

Revelation 5
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

What now remains is to examine the genealogy to see if Jesus was descended from David.  For the answer, we shall look at some verses in the Quran about the lineage of Mary.

In Surah 3 named "Family Amram 's" found a reference through which we learn that Mary's father is Amram:

Quran 3:35 The wife of Amram said, "My Lord, I have dedicated (the baby) in my belly to You, totally, so accept from me. You are Hearer, Omniscient."

Amram's wife was Anne, sister of Elizabeth, and a descendant of Aaron, this is confirmed by the Bible, in Luke chapter 1:5 and 36

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Thus, in Sura 19, we learn that Mary is a descendant of Aaron.

Quran 19:28 O descendant of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste."

Mary, whose piety was well known, can also be considered as "sister of Aaron" in the spiritual sense. The term "sister of Aaron" is perhaps the same with this prophet, just as Mary loved God with devotion and an exemplary piety.
On the other hand, in other passages of the Quran and even the Bible (see above verse Luke 1:5), the word "sister" can also take the direction of a member of a clan or lineage. For example the story with H?d, the brother of  Ād (tribe), "and the Prophet Hud who addressed his tribe was called" brother "of his tribe.

Some believe an anachronism is used in verse 19:28; But the Qur'an came to confirm and supersede other writings to correct some falsifications, moreover, people of previous scriptures are invited to refer to the Qur'an to distinguish the true from the false and continue to support their respective scriptures.

Quran 5:48 Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had God willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To God is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

It is important to note that there is no confusion that Mary, mother of Jesus is not the same as another Mary mentioned in the Old Testament , which is in the proper sense , the sister of Moses and Aaron.

So,we now know that Mary descended from Aaron, which is the tribe of Levi (see Exodus 2). We then see that the Quranic verses above put a parallel between the family of Moses and Mary, the mother of Jesus , and therefore the tribe of Levi, if we continue in this logic, then we can understand that Jesus belongs to the tribe of Levi.
David is a descendant of the tribe of Judah. Therefore they do not have the same lineage.

To conclude, it seems that all Christian and Muslim groups even today have been led to believe the return of Jesus by a set of facts deliberately intertwined with each other in order to induce people in error. They have done this as we have seen earlier by misinterpretations by " forgetting" deliberately other verses and of course by the falsification of divine revelations :

Quran 3:78 Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from God, when it is not from God. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to God, knowingly.

Quran 3:79 Never would a human being whom God blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside God." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.

Quran 3:80 Nor would he command you to idolize the angels and the prophets as lords. Would he exhort you to disbelieve after becoming submitters?

Finally to repeat what Jesus said to those who came to the question "who is this son of man?", we can say that the light is still with you,don't be as the people in the past when they were wondering, research the truth, and question traditional teachings that have no basis in the scriptures.
Also dare to admit in all honesty, the many contradictions and inconsistencies that you have found here a in a short reference.

Well to keep that light from different groups, people of the scriptures, be they Jews, Christians or Muslims, are invited to follow the religion of Abraham, the strict monotheism and do not divide into sects as being enemies to one another, but only compete with each other in righteousness by supporting God?s laws in the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran.

God guides those who seek the Truth and come to Him with all their heart, Peace be on you!
My beliefs have changed since end of 2014. Most of the threads and comments I have posted on this forum are no longer applicable. If anyone is interested to interact, you may PM me. Praise be to God

Wakas

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2014, 04:25:57 AM »
Will Jesus return?

Not in my view. In addition to your post above.

Quote
Background:

Please see the following article:
http://www.mostmerciful.com/substitution.htm

THEN also see:
http://www.free-minds.org/jesus-dead-or-alive


Taking the above into account, in terms of what is most likely, it seems that it appeared to them that Jesus had died on the cross, but likely became unconcious/fainted. He then probably lived a period after before dying.

Not only does the above fit with The Quran, but also explains The Biblical/Christian interpretation of him being raised alive, and its associated myths.

I strongly recommend reading the above links and all should be clear.

Side note: Every human being will die and be raised to life again. Please see the use of the word "raise up" (obAAathu), it is commonly used to mean as such. It does not refer to a magical/special resurrection.
e.g. "...if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death"..." [Yusuf Ali, 11:7]
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Earthdom

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2014, 04:33:19 AM »
Salaam Wakas

So this mean you  has alternative meaning of Al Masih in the Quran

Peace

Wakas

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2014, 07:09:02 AM »
w/salaam,

Salaam Wakas

So this mean you  has alternative meaning of Al Masih in the Quran

I dont think so. Here is Asad's note

Quote
Muhammad Asad - End Note 32 (3:45)
Lit., "whose name shall be `the Anointed' (al-masih)". The designation al-masih is the Arabicized form of the Aramaic meshiha which, in turn, is derived from the Hebrew mahsiah, "the anointed" - a term frequently applied in the Bible to the Hebrew kings, whose accession to power used to be consecrated by a touch with holy oil taken from the Temple . This anointment appears to have been so important a rite among the Hebrews that the term "the anointed" became in the course of time more or less synonymous with "king". Its application to Jesus may have been due to the widespread conviction among his contemporaries (references to which are found in several places in the Synoptic Gospels) that he was descended in direct - and obviously legitimate - line from the royal House of David. (It is to be noted that this could not have related to his mother's side, because Mary belonged to the priestly class descending from Aaron, and thus to the tribe of Levi, while David descended from the tribe of Judah .) Whatever may have been the historical circumstances, it is evident that the honorific "the Anointed" was applied to Jesus in his own lifetime. In the Greek version of the Gospels - which is undoubtedly based on a now-lost Aramaic original - this designation is correctly translated as Christos (a noun derived from the Greek verb chriein, "to anoint"): and since it is in this form - "the Christ" - that the designation al-masih has achieved currency in all Western languages, I am using it throughout in my translation.

Perhaps you can clarify how the meaning of "al masih" would be contrary to my previous post.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2014, 11:14:19 AM »
Peace Earthdom.

I believe Jesus will not come back.His predetermined period in this life is finished. No one comes back to have another go a this life.Full stop.

Here is another theory  by Lisa spray?to add to your collection:

The account of Jesus' death in the Quran is startling. It states: "they never killed Jesus; they never crucified him; they were only made to think that they did." : They claimed that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him; they never crucified him; they were only made to think that they did. Indeed, those who speculate about him are full of doubt about their own accounts; they are never sure. They only conjecture. What is absolutely certain is: they never killed him. Instead, God raised him to Him. God is Almighty, Most Wise. [Quran 4:157-158]

Undoubtedly, this Quranic narration represents a new and profound account of the death of Jesus. It is bound to shock most people, so some explanation is in order.

The Quran consistently talks about the `real person,' i.e., the soul, when talking about anyone. The Quran differentiates between two human entities: a temporary entity, the body, and an eternal entity which is `the person.' The temporary entity is considered a shell or a garment worn by the lasting entity. The Quran does not regard this temporary shell as `the person.' The importance of the body, or the person's outer shell, is in serving the real person by effecting sufficient growth and development of the soul in preparation for the real, eternal life (of the Hereafter). If we look upon one's body as a wild horse, one attains the required growth and development by taming and controlling the whims of this horse. At the end of one's predetermined interim in this life, one sheds the shell and moves on towards the eternal Hereafter; the body's role ends.

Thus, when the Quran states that "they never crucified Jesus; they never killed him," the word "him" here refers to the real Jesus, not his body.

The body may be present somewhere, but the person may or may not be present with it. People who are familiar with `out-of-body experiences' know that the body is nothing more than a garment or a physical vehicle for the soul. In out-of-body experiences, the intellect remains with the person, not with the body. Those who practice out-of-body (or astral projection) experiments often describe the body as just laying there like an inanimate object.

The Quran explains clearly that Jesus, the real person, was `raised to God' prior to any torture or crucifixion. Those who believed that they were torturing or crucifying Jesus were in fact dealing with Jesus' body, an empty shell devoid of feelings and knowledge.

Being `raised to God' indicates another important fact-that the righteous go directly to heaven, and do not wait for the Day of Resurrection to attain Paradise:

THE RIGHTEOUS DO NOT DIE;

When their lives on this earth come to the predetermined end, the angel of death simply invites them to leave their earthly bodies and move on to Heaven, the same Paradise where Adam and Eve once lived. Heaven has been in existence since Adam and Eve. We learn from 89:27-30 that God invites the believers' souls: "Enter My Paradise." The above quote is from an article written by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, the discoverer of the Quran's mathematical code (SUBMITTERS PERSPECTIVE, Masjid Tucson, Feb., 1990). He continues: As far as people on earth are concerned, the righteous "die." People do not realize that the righteous simply leave their bodies, and move on to Paradise....The righteous go to Paradise, while their friends and relatives are still living on earth. Like going to Hawaii and waiting for us there. He cites several verses which are well worth examining: Give good news to those who believe and work righteousness that they will have gardens with flowing streams. When provided with provisions of fruits therein, they will say, "This is what was given to us in the past." They will be given similar provisions, and they will have pure spouses therein. They abide therein

forever. [Quran 2:25]

The indication in this verse is that the righteous are in a place similar to gardens of the Hereafter, with similar provisions. This would certainly be the case if they had been waiting in the Garden of Eden (also called Paradise), until the Day of Resurrection. Coupled with the following verses, that is the clear conclusion:

Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of God are dead; they are alive at their Lord, being provided for. [Quran 3:169]

Do not say about those who are killed in the cause of God, "They are dead." For they are alive, but you do not perceive. [Quran 2:154]

(At the time of his death) he was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "I wish my people (on earth) knew that my Lord has forgiven me and honored me." [Quran 36:26-27]

In the case of Jesus, all these mathematically coded verses show that God raised the real person, Jesus' soul, leaving his body for the torturers and crucifiers. Thus, they never tortured Jesus. They never crucified him. He was gone long before any torture or crucifixion of his body:

They plotted and schemed, but so did God; God is the best schemer. Thus, God said, "O Jesus, I am putting you to death; raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will make those who follow you high above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you. Then I will judge among you concerning your disputes." [Quran 3:54-55]

It is astonishing to find this phenomenon, the separation of the real person from the still living body, indicated in the New Testament, and even more specifically stated in some apocryphal literature. There is an especially straightforward reference to this phenomenon reported by James Brashler in THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY (Harper & Row, 1977).

The Nag Hammadi Library is a collection of ancient documents unearthed at Nag Hammadi, Egypt. They are described as containing "the sacred scriptures of the Gnostic movement that emerged and rapidly grew in the cradle of civilization at the time of Jesus and early Christianity. Its codices are a priceless periscope into the tumultuous world of ideas brewing during one of civilization's great turning points."

James Brashler describes a vision seen by the apostle Peter, in his introduction to the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (Ibid., p. 339):

The first visionary scene, is depicting the hostile priests and people about to kill Jesus (72,4-9)....The second scene (81,3-14) describes Peter's vision of the crucifixion of Jesus. The accompanying interpretation by Jesus makes a distinction between the external physical form and the living Jesus; the latter stands nearby laughing at his ignorant persecutors. A clear distinction is thus made in this ancient literature, very close to the time of Jesus, between "the external physical form," i.e., the body of Jesus, and "the living Jesus." According to this narration, the real person of Jesus was unphased by the torturers and persecutors of his soulless body.

Looking at the translation of the Apocalypse of Peter itself (Ibid., p. 344), we find the startling vision of Peter:

When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said, "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing, on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?" The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is the fleshy part." [Apocalypse of Peter, VII, 3, 81]

A careful examination of the Gospels of Mark and Luke reveals that Jesus was in fact gone prior to crucifixion. He did not respond to the surrounding chaos. This confirms the apocryphal account reported in the Nag Hammadi Library, and agrees with the mathematically authenticated account of the Quran:

The chief priests, meanwhile, brought many accusations against Jesus. Pilate interrogated him again: "Surely you have some answer? See how many accusations they are leveling against you." But greatly to Pilate's surprise, Jesus made no further response. [Mark 15:3-5]

Herod was extremely pleased to see Jesus. From the reports about him he had wanted to see him, and he was hoping to see him work some miracle. He questioned Jesus at considerable length, but Jesus made no answer. The chief priests and scribes were at hand to accuse him vehemently. Herod and his guards then treated him with contempt and insult.... [Luke 23:8-11]

Putting all these accounts together, this possible picture emerges:

1. The human being consists of two main distinct entities:

a. the body, which serves as a mere shell or garment, and

b. the soul, which is the real person.

2. In accordance with a predetermined plan, the time came for Jesus to complete his mission as God's messenger to the Children of Israel and as the Messiah. This coincided with the scheme of Jesus' adversaries to crucify him. Just before executing their plot, God's plan was implemented, and Jesus the real person was summoned or "raised to God."

3. Jesus' body was left for his persecutors to torture and crucify; they were dealing with an empty shell devoid of all feelings or understanding.

4. Thus, the Quran's mathematically coded statements that "they never killed Jesus, they never crucified him; they were led to believe that they did," are accurate and proven facts.

MODERN DEMONSTRATION

Rashad Khalifa draws an interesting parallel between what he understands to be the case in Jesus' death, and that of a modern patient who underwent an historical surgical procedure. (See Khalifa's QURAN THE FINAL TESTAMENT, Ibid. Appendix 22, p. 667)

On November 25, 1984, William J. Schroeder, from Jasper, Indiana, received an artificial heart at Humana Heart Institute International of Louisville, Kentucky. The NEW YORK TIMES of Monday, November 26, 1984 published the following news item:

SURGEONS IMPLANT MECHANICAL PUMP TO REPLACE HEARTLOUISVILLE, KY, Nov 25 -- A 17-member surgical team today removed the diseased heart of a 52-year old man and replaced it with a plastic and metal pump....Dr. Devries leaned over Mr. Schroeder and said, "Everything went well, perfectly." On Wednesday, December 12, 1984, the 18th day after receiving the artificial heart, Mr. Schroeder was so normal and so alert that when President Reagan talked with him he complained about a delay in sending his Social Security disability check. On the nineteenth day, December 13, 1984, the world was told that Mr. Schroeder "suffered a stroke." What really happened was that Mr. Schroeder, the real person, departed. William J. Schroeder died. His body, the empty shell, continued to function through artificial means. The artificial heart continued to pump, and all other life processes of Mr. Schroeder's body continued to work. Significantly, from that moment on, he never recognized the date, the day or time. The WASHINGTON POST of Friday, December 14, 1984 published the following news:

LOUISVILLE, Dec. 13---William J. Schroeder, who became the world's second recipient of an artificial heart 18 days ago, tonight suffered a stroke in his hospital bed as he ate dinner with his wife, doctors reported.... (Dr. A. M.) Lansing replied, "unequivocally, no," when asked if the stroke could have been a result of Schroeder's many activities recently. These included a telephone conversation with President Reagan Wednesday and fast government action earlier today to deliver a Social Security disability check that he had told Reagan was overdue.

At Humana Hospital - Audubon, where the implant took place, Lansing said Schroeder was talking to his wife when "she noticed suddenly he stopped feeding himself and was just holding his food in his right hand." He appeared "drowsy, his eyes rolled back, and he became somewhat limp," Lansing said. The stroke was not "life threatening," Lansing said. Shortly afterward, Schroeder was somewhat "stuporous" and "not talking intelligently," Lansing said.

In retrospect, it is obvious that William J. Schroeder actually left his body on the nineteenth day (December 13, 1984) after receiving the artificial heart on November 25, 1984. Schroeder was raised to God about 600 days-19 months-before his body finally ceased to function.

According to the Quran, this is precisely what happened to Jesus: he was raised to God before the crucifixion of his empty body:

They claimed that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him; they never crucified him; they were led to believe that they did.... For sure, they never killed him. Instead, God raised him to Him. God is Almighty, Most Wise. [Quran 4:157-158]


Draw your own conclusion!

Peace to you.
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Earthdom

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2014, 06:57:19 AM »
Thank you Wakas and good_logic to bring the useful information.
Indeed the second coming of Jesus maybe just an ancient fairy tales.

The term "anointed" is very common in Tanakh's cultures as the symbol of purity.

Lisa Spray also gave good theory bout Jesus'crucifixion, very make sense.

Peace

Wakas

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2022, 03:43:16 AM »
I recently watched Mufti Abu Layth's review of this issue. He dismantles the Traditional Islamic argument, mainly from Traditional sources themselves:

It's quite long but he drops some gems now and then, several videos cover this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHzYu3BKBWE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR3NSX3UFy8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMSmkLdEgSo

Interestingly he does seem to get responses from Traditionalists trying to rebut him. Clearly they feel it enough of a threat to respond.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Jafar

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2022, 10:08:07 PM »
Will Jesus return?

A. Will the physical body of an individual known as Iashua around 2000 years ago suddenly appeared again on planet earth at around 30-40 years of age?
The answer is definitely No.

B. Will the physical body of an individual known as Iashua around 2000 years ago suddenly appeared again on planet earth coming down from the sky at around 30-40 years of age?
The answer is definitely No.

C. Will a soul once living in human body and known as Iashua around 2000 years ago, incarnating again in baby human body and known as other identities?
It's probable, yes, yet the soul's memory will be wiped out thus he/she/it might have difficulties of recollecting the memory he/she/it once has as Iashua and he/she/it will be known as other name today.

D. Will a soul once living in human body and known as Iashua around 2000 years ago, communicate with human individuals currently living on planet earth? It's probable yes, you will recognize him by the type of his messages and if you're 'sensitive' enough, his 'soul signature'.


Interesting stuff:
- A gentleman recalling his memory of living (as among others) a guy named Moshe in ancient egypt.
https://youtu.be/PToR6DjjdmU?t=2422

- The Way of the Heart, the teachings from Jeshua ben Josef
https://youtu.be/hlBWULvcayw

Fusion

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2022, 09:19:24 AM »
Quite interesting bro.
The only puzzling question I have is your probably answers.

What I meant is that if the same exact soul can be divided into two different bodies separated thousands of years, then the question of accountability will be applied to which physical person? unless there is no physical concept in akhira.?

By the way it was my childhood wish that I can travel back and forth in time occupying different bodies and feel the experience :-)

cheers
 


Will Jesus return?

A. Will the physical body of an individual known as Iashua around 2000 years ago suddenly appeared again on planet earth at around 30-40 years of age?
The answer is definitely No.

B. Will the physical body of an individual known as Iashua around 2000 years ago suddenly appeared again on planet earth coming down from the sky at around 30-40 years of age?
The answer is definitely No.

C. Will a soul once living in human body and known as Iashua around 2000 years ago, incarnating again in baby human body and known as other identities?
It's probable, yes, yet the soul's memory will be wiped out thus he/she/it might have difficulties of recollecting the memory he/she/it once has as Iashua and he/she/it will be known as other name today.

D. Will a soul once living in human body and known as Iashua around 2000 years ago, communicate with human individuals currently living on planet earth? It's probable yes, you will recognize him by the type of his messages and if you're 'sensitive' enough, his 'soul signature'.


Interesting stuff:
- A gentleman recalling his memory of living (as among others) a guy named Moshe in ancient egypt.
https://youtu.be/PToR6DjjdmU?t=2422

- The Way of the Heart, the teachings from Jeshua ben Josef
https://youtu.be/hlBWULvcayw
Best Regards,

Jafar

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Re: Will Jesus return?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2022, 07:18:57 AM »
Quite interesting bro.
The only puzzling question I have is your probably answers.

What I meant is that if the same exact soul can be divided into two different bodies separated thousands of years, then the question of accountability will be applied to which physical person?

A 'soul' is a 'finite consciousness'.
A fraction of the one infinite consciousness.
A soul can split to become many souls or many 'finite consciousness'.
And many souls can merged to become one soul or one 'finite consciousness'.

Yet in the end the 'finite consciousness' will break it's border that separate a soul with another soul and rejoin the one infinite consciousness. Separation between soul is merely an illusion. Sufis call this as "Wahdat Al Wujd", singularity of all form of existence.

The one infinite consciousness is the "father", if we use Jesus lingo.
The finite consciousness is the "son", if we use Jesus lingo.
The last layer of finite consciousness prior to merging back with the one infinite consciousness (the father) is the "holy spirit", if we use Jesus lingo. In eastern tradition this is also being referred to as "Atman", in English sometimes also being referred as "The Self" or "The Higher Self" or "The Oversoul". In common language this is often being referred as "your conscience" as it continuously provide you with guidance.

Quote
unless there is no physical concept in akhira.?

Space and Time is part of creation.
Ending is a marking in time, one see it as an 'end' yet other might see it as a 'beginning'.
It's two side of the same coin.
Yet space and time is not infinite, it's finite.
As it's part of creation.

Space time will break, as scientist has found on their research on black hole.
What Happens When the Spacetime Continuum Breaks
https://youtu.be/ienNZA-ro4I

And when one enter a blackhole, space become time and time become space.
How Time Becomes Space Inside a Black Hole
https://youtu.be/KePNhUJ2reI

Consciousness is not within space time or time space.
It's the other way around; space time and time space is in consciousness.

Quote
By the way it was my childhood wish that I can travel back and forth in time occupying different bodies and feel the experience :-)
You already are, were and will be.
You just do not remember the experience.

Similarly as you do not remember your dream last night once you're focusing on daily life.
And you do not remember about your daily life once you're focusing on your dream experience.
As such that "sleep" is often being referred as "mini death".