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To Those Who Prohibit Reciting Prophet's Name For Shahadat and Duroot.

Started by Earthdom, June 19, 2013, 08:35:41 AM

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Man of Faith

Peace,

With all due respect; the passages mean to serve that which has been associated in jurisdiction with God erroneously. That is the real meaning of شرك. It mostly refers to what the false jurisdiction tells them to do, i.e. useless rituals and stuff.

God especially dislikes poor judgment and to what this leads into when someone is void of sound judgment. Then it does not matter how pious they claim themselves to be. It is by the deeds and behavior we shall be judged.

Giving salam to a prophet may be done, but the question is how much of a benefit it would make. The mentioned prophet is done on his test and no person can change their outcome in God's judgment. Nor do these people suffer or grieve and hence have no need of your salam. The concept is redundant. If one knows the meaning of the very word they would know these people are s l m.

Wishing something good for a relative or friend is just a lousy comparison to think it would be shirk because what other than a lovely show of care is that?

But thinking God's jurisdiction orders something which is not true then that is shirk and if it was attributed to the prophet then it is shirk with this prophet. The worst shirk is including when it leads these people to fail in sound judgment due to their delusions of what the prophet or tradition allegedly told them. We have examples of that in traditional Islam where people actually believe in things which are a show of very poor judgment.

But what God judges on is based on behavior and deed. Invented idiocy bring much attention on meaningless rituals and they often become quite dogmatic and get kind of tunnel vision meaning they lose focus on the essence of the faith in pursuit to perform all their prohibitions and rituals flawlessly. And being a good person showing sound judgment is the real point for us.

Be of one with God
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Zulf

Quote from: Armanaziz on September 15, 2014, 05:30:53 AM
Thanks to brother Zulf for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciate.

However, I have to say - your response did not seem to address my specific question. I am specifically talking about the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah" as we see in Qur'an (7:194, 10:66 etc.) Whether or not we can greet dead people or wish blessing on someone we don't know - and WHY would one want to do so - are all different questions - but let's first decide whether or not B or C can be understood as "Calling someone other than Allah". I find it very difficult to accept that the meaning of the phrase would vary depending on whether this "someone" is dead or alive, or whether we personally know this "someone".

Would appreciate your thoughts on exclusively the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah."

... ... ...

Before you revisit your response, you may wish to know what my understanding is on your comments. Here I am sharing my humble thoughts on some of the points you raised:

1. Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it?

Whether our prayer would help another person - dead or alive is solely and absolutely a discretion of Allah. If someone is helped that is only because Allah wanted to help him - our prayer is never a deciding factor for well being of others - neither dead, nor alive. Still human beings do pray for each other and they are encouraged to pray for each other because prayer for others is an expression of mercy, kindness and fellow-feelings in our heart and Allah loves the ones who are merciful and kind. From this percpective there is little difference between praying for a dead person and praying for a living person.

Furthermore, Qur'an provides specific example where dead people are not beyond the scope of greetings and prayers - see 7:46.

2. Why would we greet someone we don't know personally?

We do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image. Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

Let's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read. Similalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

You have brought the comparison of overglorification of Jesus (pbuh) in Christianity. I do not believe Qur'an condemns or discourages praying for a Prophet of wishing blessing upon him - on the contrary Qur'an sets example of such blessing itself (see 19:15). What Qur'an condemns is calling prophets/angels as son of Allah and taking prophets/angels as Master from other than Allah. We need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Peace and thank you for your kind reply br. Arman,

1. First off, I have to agree that I seem to have missed your point, where you ask about "calling on someone other than Allah". I take this to mean that the people in the mentioned ayats are calling on certain entities for aid, help and assistance. Like e.g. if you'd pray to Saint Augustine (or whatever) to help you get pregnant. Or praying to Ganesha for rain so  the crops won't fail. Ok, I just made up these things, but I hope you get what I mean. To me it seems that calling on someone other than Allah mean that you call on some specific entity, which is part of Creation. This is "other than Allah". Also, "call on" would mean to seek help from or similar.

So, I obviously don't see a problem in calling on your neighbor for help, in carrying a piano or doing the taxes, but I guess that's not what we are discussing.

2. Regarding 7:46, does it really involve living people communicating with dead people? I don't think so. Seems like a scenario in the afterlife is described.

I believe there is a huge difference between praying for a live and a passed away person. The passed away person has already done his or her deeds. The test is over. What effect can my prayers have on my dead grandma?

I also believe prayers work very well on living people. It's not just wishes of well. Prayers can really have a great effect, as seen in different religions, and even outside religions.

3.
QuoteWe do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image.

But we are not talking about knowing someone 100%. We don't even know ourselves 100%. I can pray for my cousin whom I perhaps don't meet very often and don't know too well. No problem. At least I know for a fact that my cousin is a living human being.

Quote
Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

What do you KNOW about your prophet? Nothing! You just rely on stories about the prophet to be true. We trust our sources of information, but we cannot know how true they are. So, studying about a prophet does not necessarily mean you are acquiring more information (true facts) about that prophet. Studying means you are memorizing the information written in the texts. That's all it means. Did the prophet have the stamina and sexual power of 30 men? That's what the books say. That's what we read when we are studying the prophet. But is it true? How can we tell? We cannot tell for sure! Ok, this was perhaps not the main point, but there are people who believe Jesus created the universe and they are praying to Jesus to heal their mother, because this is what they have read in books.

Regarding the shopkeeper, at least you know he or she is alive. He or she is a real person in front of you. That you know for a fact, and therefor you can pray for that person. The shopkeeper is not a figure from the history books... a figure we construct an image of in our minds as we read descriptions about him. There's a huge difference.

But anyhow, my main point is not so much in regards to what we know about someone, but rather whether or not that person is able to benefit or receive your salam, greeting, prayer. This is the crux.

QuoteLet's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read.

And it's quite a reasonable assumption to assume that I'm a real person who is writing these posts, and not a bot or something.

QuoteSimilalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

I guess I have to agree that the quran does speak of a person, a prophet, who received the quran through inspiration, and there might be some other things told about him in the text, and this would be enough to assume he was a real person. However, I would not believe what e.g. hadith is saying about the prophet.

What I'm turning against is the whole thing of greeting a dead person (not alive in this physical, material dimension). I cannot see the purpose because I believe he is safer and better off now than what I can imagine, and my prayers wouldn't have an effect anyway once someone's life is terminated. The test is over.

Also, why would I greet someone dead? To improve their status? To let them know I support them? To feel good myself despite knowing they won't hear my greeting? What's the reason?

In any case, I have to acknowledge that I may not understand how you see things. Right now, I have only spoken from my current perspective. Perhaps I can learn something from you. But again, right now, I find it utterly pointless to send prayer, salaams, greetings or similar onto people who have passed away.

QuoteWe need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic

I agree on this fully! May Allah guide us all to better understanding and a clearer vision and better insight. May Allah bless us with purification.


Let me know if I have misunderstood something. Perhaps I can clarify.
Peace and best regards!
Z
If you name me, you negate me.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Quote from: Armanaziz on September 15, 2014, 02:50:06 AM
Salamun Alaikum.

Quran clearly rules out calling others besides Allah (7:194 is an example)... but what does calling someone other than Allah mean?

A. Praying to someone other than Allah;
B. Calling someone to wish peace/blessings for him;
C. Praying to Allah for someone else;
D. ALL of the above.

I believe it is only A. If B is also unacceptable - then our everyday exchange of salam / greetings with each other becomes unacceptable. If C is unacceptable - how come Quran recommend to pray for the parents etc.

If there are contrary opinions, please discuss with logic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

If (B) occurs in prayer (or what is intended as prayer), then it would fall under the restrictions of (A). There is also a potential issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is *not* obligatory (such as calling for peace to another)--isn't that just another way of taking partners? It wouldn't matter if it was hopping on one foot during prayer--if a person takes it to be obligatory without authority (and there is no Authority besides the Almighty) then it is shirk.

Is it recommended that we pray for others?

60:4 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father: "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

ALLAH knows best.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

Arman

Salamun Alaikum Brother Zulf and Abdul-Hadi.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

- I am glad to see my understanding of "calling on someone other than Allah"  is now aligned with the understanding of brother Zulf. Given this understanding - verses like 7:194, 10:66 should not be used to prohibit blessing on Prophets or daroods etc.

- Brother Zulf believes - if I am reading his post correctly ? our prayer does help living people but they cannot help dead people. I do not agree to this point. Per my understanding, helping someone ? dead or alive is a sole authority of Allah ? our prayer for others is merely a reflection of our feelings in our heart for others. I love my friend / relative when he is alive, I wish the best for him, so I pray for him - irrespective of any consideration on whether my prayer will actually help him. I may wish my friend best of luck on the result day of a major exam - knowing very well that his results will be a function of his performance in the test and is probably all settled by now - irrespective I wish him luck or not! I still love my friend / relative when he is dead, so I continue to wish the best for him still pray for him, and so I pray for him. I see no problem with this ? and I definitely do not consider this a shirk.

In a nutshell - my prayer and blessings for others is not motivated by a cost-benefit analysis of whether the blessing would help anyone, rather it is an spontaneous expression of what my heart wishes for them. Thus I seem to differ fundamentally from brother Zulf on the purpose of my greetings and blessings for others. Perhaps we have to agree to disagree on this point.

- I understand 7:46 gives a scenario where dead people are greeting and blessing each other ? not one where living people are blessing dead people. But I referred to this verse solely to illustrate the point that dead people are not beyond the scope of greeting and blessings. Let me specifically quote Brother Zulf:

QuoteThe passed away person has already done his or her deeds. The test is over. What effect can my prayers have on my dead grandma?

This is exactly where 7:46 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.

- I agree 100% with Brother Abdul-Hadi that there is definitely an issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is *not* obligatory (such as calling for peace to another). Although I doubt if that can always amount to ?shirk?, but it definitely is problematic. In this connection I would humbly mention that from my limited understanding of ?Traditional Islam? ? most traditional schools of thought DO NOT propose darood / Shahadat etc. as ?Mandatory? or ?Farz? part of Salaat ritual.

Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Zulf

Quote from: Armanaziz on September 16, 2014, 12:45:11 AM
This is exactly where 7:46 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.

Yes, this seems to be the current difference in our perspectives and we we believe things work. We differ in whether or not we believe that a passed away persons situation can still change, after passing away. I believe their destiny is sealed. Of course, I may be wrong. I will keep pondering it, and with time, perhaps my understanding shifts. In any case, Allah is in total control.

Quote
Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.

This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.

We should worry more about ourselves, to improve and get more purified, and not who is better than whom. Elevating one above another is to lean towards racism and cast system. We are all souls from God. If someone is more pure than another, then that's God's business. We should only mind our own growth, and avoid casting judgement among others.

Peace
:)


[/quote]
If you name me, you negate me.

huruf

Quote from: Zulf on September 16, 2014, 06:25:14 AM

This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.






Quote
There are people here who are convinced that Muhammad is not the name of a person that it may be a collective or something of the kind, so what? What does it change. Prophecy is a Mercy for humans from the Allmight Allmerciful? What is wrong with remembering it, with praising God for it? What is wrong with remembering that we are a prophetic community, that is, that we believe that God's mercy is flowing to us that God communicates with us. Is not Muhammad (whether a person or several or simply a condition) the seal of prophets? Suppose it is not a person, but a condition or a ruh that inhabits certain people at certain times, so what is wrong with praising God's mercy, that mercy which relies us to Him.

The seal of prophets encloses all the prophets, all of them, those we know and those we do not know.


Salaam

hafeez kazi

Peace all

Praying for living and dead are useless even if you pray one million times. Because Allah does what he WILLS.

He guides whom He wills, He increases provisions whom He wills, He accepts repentance of whom He wills, He forgives whom He wills, He punishes whom He wills, He sends mercy on whom He wills, He guides whom He wills to a straight path, He multiplies (His rewards) for whom He wills, He gives wisdom to whom He wills, He creates what He wills, he grants bounty to whom He wills, He purifies whom He wills, He bestows favor on whom He wills, He leaves astray whom He wills, He gives victory to whom He wills, He guides to His Light whom He wills, He causes to hear whom He wills, He gives males /females to whom He wills, He renders whom He wills barren.

........"Then who could prevent Allah at all if He intended for you harm or intended for you benefit? Rather, ever is Allah, with what you do, Acquainted  48:11

But never will Allah delay a soul when its time has come. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do. (Al-Munaafiqoon: 11)

He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah; He does what He wills." (3: 40)

Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills. (22: 18)

Can anybody change the WILL of Allah by praying to HIM for OTHERS or DEAD?

That is because Allah would not change a favor which He had bestowed upon a people until they change what is within themselves. And indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing. (Al-Anfaal: 53)

For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah. Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling in it and there is not for them besides Him any patron. (Ar-Ra'd: 11)

Pray for yourselves with full faith in Allah and do not pray for those who are dead or others who are living. PRAYING FOR OTHERS IS AS GOOD AS INTERCESSION 

INTERCESSION: PRAYER, PETITION OR ENTREATY FOR ANOTHER: THE ACTION OF SAYING A PRAYER ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER. A PRAYER TO GOD FOR ANOTHER.

When I was a ten year old boy I used to observe some Muslims sending Salat on Prophet after the Friday prayers and that lasted for about three to five minutes. But today the sending of Salat on prophet has become a daily routine after the Fajr prayer lasting about fifteen minutes and on Friday the sending of Salat plus some other nonsense things last about one hour. This has become a part of religion and tantamount to shirk.

And most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him 12:106

Man of Faith

No. Praying for someone is not useless. God does as God wills, that is true, but God does also carry out wills of other upright men and women because God is not a tyrant and we also work in harmony with God if we are with God. We have thus erased our egos and live like one with the spirit.

Praying for someone where God clearly wants something else would however be futile, but you live in a kind of communion condition with God so also as an individual in the community with God pray for someone else is certainly okay. We can do good through direct physical deeds or we can bless people, to various degrees depending on the growth of one's own soul, for God will listen.

Even wish something in ways of events in the world can be granted from God. I was able through the blessing of God to protect my wife from being damaged in car accident some weeks ago since I had prayed for a certain protection for my son while she and my son were gone in Iran and God did not let my wife become hurt and she could even rise up and walk away with almost no blemish despite being thrown up in the air quite high and then down on the car again. Her leg is a bit stiff and aches a little but otherwise just fine. I did not ask for a car accident, but I had prayed for protection for my son.

And; Abraham prayed for a whole offspring coming after him (although God clearly stating that it would not include the evildoers). That is clearly a misconception that prayers are meaningless. And praying good upon someone other than yourself simply shows your reduced ego whereas constantly doing it for yourself seems a bit selfish.

That all we can do is materialistic in nature in this world is just a sign on how much we are obsessed with physical objects. Same goes for that ketaab delusion or salat and many other words that take mostly a physical meaning in almost all contexts.

Please reflect upon why prayers are performed in the narration of Quran by various historical figures and then compare it to your argument. Remember the people sometimes pray for other people.

Be of one with God
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Zulf

Indeed, prayer has amazing power even though we don't know the mechanics behind it.
The power of prayer is no less real than stuff we do "in the material world". For example, I can intend to drive to town, buy the new cook book for my relative so that he can have that planned dinner. Easy right? Well, not if God doesn't will. Perhaps I get sick, perhaps my car won't start, perhaps traffic gets jammed, perhaps the book is sold out, perhaps perhaps perhaps. We can't even be sure to carry out simple physical deed in this material world, but that doesn't render the concept of action useless. We have intentions and often we are able to carry out what we intend. Same with prayers. Prayer is not just wishful thinking. It has power if done with heart and emotion.

Cheers
If you name me, you negate me.

Man of Faith

Peace Zulf,

We ought to realize that we are of one with God and therefore we can also will in spirit with God. But also to will things which are bad in judgment while knowing better is like double the punishment. Noah repented for praying for his son and it showed that God got pissed off since he ought to have known better. What we pray for we are responsible for ourselves.

But to pray for certain scenarios; to affect the "time line", in uprightness is nothing wrong. Abraham prophesied with authority for future generations, but it was a prayer from his part, and it included people who were already alive at that time. "Protect me and my sons from serving idols" was in a prayer. Clearly individuals are making intentional prayers for other people in Quran, yet certain people want to prohibit prayers?

Complicated to explain, yet not so incomprehensible. God is way way closer to us than we care to think.

Be of one with God
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]