Author Topic: Wudu, Ablution  (Read 19446 times)

hawk99

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2013, 11:46:13 AM »
peace hawk99,

But the principle is the same. You are saying ablution for flatulence, but are seemingly saying here ablution not required for urine emission, which is not rare according to you, so is fairly common then.

While the principle is the same, farting can be more egregious.

Please allow me to extrapolate from where we are both with our respected positions.
Let's say a person has made ablution and is returning from the privy and is about to
worship when suddenly the person farts a "wet one" and let's say that the amount
is enough to cause "butt mud" and the person stinks to all get out, the question is,
should that person be allowed to remain in the worship area?  Should that person be
required to make ablution again? I say yes,  now of course I will ask you to provide
Quranic references if possible in your answer since you appear not to rely on
subjective anidotes, but subjectivity is allowed and ok with me since we have a brain.

peace hawk99,
Your view:
flatulence ---> ablution
urine ---> no ablution
Your view makes no sense. The only sense I can make of it is to say since flatulence comes with a tell tale sign/feeling, then it can be detected thus ablution is required because you know you farted. Whereas droplet urine emission may not be noticed hence requires no ablution. Is this your view?

Updated:
No this is not my view, urine also breaks ablution because it is also toilet related.


peace hawk99,

But the principle is the same. You are saying ablution for flatulence, but are seemingly saying here ablution not required for urine emission, which is not rare according to you, so is fairly common then.

Your view:
flatulence ---> ablution
urine ---> no ablution

Your view makes no sense. The only sense I can make of it is to say since flatulence comes with a tell tale sign/feeling, then it can be detected thus ablution is required because you know you farted. Whereas droplet urine emission may not be noticed hence requires no ablution. Is this your view?


I must repeat myself: distraction or farting is not ideal, but that does not mean one MUST excuse themselves. In fact, we can reasonably deduce this from Quran itself because it implies if one is ill or travelling one should still attend the regular/timed salat/bond if able, thus clearly it places significant importance to this act.

I underlined "if able" as you say, but if ablution is broken then it should be remade,
i.e., the things that broke it first breaks it a second time, having said that, if one is
ill that is an exception, or has a condition, God is merciful, forgiving.

So, given that we know this, then is it such a big deal to possibly make others a little uncomfortable (subjectively) by releasing some farts? Not to me. Of course, if one is releasing multiple stinky farts then they should minimise the impact, as this is common courtesy, e.g. stand at the peripheries etc but I would not say one must leave or one must do ablution (which does not do anything to minimise the impact of the initial farting).

Welcome to the subjectivity club my friend, I underlined "common courtesy".

peace hawk99,
Strong claim. Evidence?

The normal cough expels biological matter as does sneezzing therefore I conclude
farting in that group.

God Bless

   :peace:






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Man of Faith

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2013, 09:33:37 PM »
Peace,

Skilled worshipers empty their farting needs at the time of ablution and they will not have these problems. This gets a bit silly in my opinion.

Just make a few juicy blowers before taking ablution and you will be alright.

Eating a healthy diet will remove the problems with gases and is highly recommended.

At any rate, I have not heard of anyone with the grave problems you discuss. If they feel so bad they are constantly farting perhaps they should abstain from praying in groups to prevent humiliating themselves.

God bless you
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Wakas

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2013, 02:12:06 AM »
peace hawk99,

Quote
Should that person be
required to make ablution again? I say yes,  now of course I will ask you to provide
Quranic references if possible in your answer...

We have already discussed this, see reply 42 onwards.

Thanks for clarifying urine emission also breaks ablution, according to you. As we discussed this is fairly common. It seems people would be making and re-making ablution quite a bit in your thinking - regardless of known benefits.

Quote
Welcome to the subjectivity club my friend, I underlined "common courtesy".

I'm not using my subjectivity to say one MUST do X. Big difference.


And thanks for clarifying you have no actual evidence for your fecal matter emitted with any fart claim.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Bender

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2013, 02:52:59 AM »
Salaam,

5:6 is very clear I think (fm translation):

5:6 O you who believe,

1A- WHEN you rise to hold the contact prayer
1B- THEN wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles

2A- AND IF you have had intercourse
2B- THEN you shall bathe.


3A1- AND IF you are ill
3A2-      OR traveling,
3A3-           OR you have excreted feces
3A4-                OR you have had sexual contact with the women,       
3B- and you cannot not find water, THEN you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it.

God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be thankful.


whenever a believer wants to do 1A then he/she should do 1B
whenever a believer had 2A then he/she should do 2B
whenever a believer had 3A1 OR 3A2 OR 3A3 3A4 then he/she should do 3B

Salaam,
Bender

Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

hawk99

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2013, 05:06:38 AM »
Peace Bender,Man of Faith,

According to Wakas farting does not break ablution agree/disagree


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hawk99

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2013, 05:28:46 AM »

peace hawk99,
It seems people would be making and re-making ablution quite a bit in your thinking - regardless of known benefits.

Peace Wakas,

Not necessarily, I do not pretend to speak for others, maybe you can or someone with
firsthand knowledge can comment.

peace hawk99,
I'm not using my subjectivity to say one MUST do X. Big difference.

Your Quote:

"Of course, if one is releasing multiple stinky farts then they should minimise the impact,
as this is common courtesy, e.g. stand
at the peripheries etc but I would not say one must
leave or one must do ablution (which does not do anything to minimise the impact of the
initial farting)."


Here you are being subjective, it's ok, don't panic, yes you did not say  "must" but you
did say "should."

And thanks for clarifying you have no actual evidence for your fecal matter emitted with any fart claim.

Disagree, I think if we used your uv detector or the necessary device for detection
we would find my opinion to be correct.

Let's move on, in 5/6 what is your view of  (lāmastumu)"contacted/touched the women"

God Bless

   :peace:


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Wakas

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2013, 03:30:10 PM »
peace hawk99,

My view is linked in reply 42, essentially same as bro Joseph, although I have not studied it in detail.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

justamuslim

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2013, 07:37:48 PM »
I really would like to know what God has to say about all these discussions on flatulence.  And is this what God cares - flatulence?   

justamuslim

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2013, 07:41:44 PM »

For all those who find this verse as translated to be accurate/clear and believe it relates to ablution, I have some questions:

1) who is God referring to in this verse
   A) men?
   B) women?
   C) men and women?

God says clearly that intention is to purify us. 
2) what is physical purity? 
        Washing hands, face, feet?
         Taking a bath?
         Wiping hands and face with dirt? 

3) if one has gone to the bathroom but does not have water, how does wiping hands and face with dirt lead to purity?  Hands and face have dirt and the private is dirty with urine or fecal matter.   So again, what is purity?   

4) God does not say he wants us to be physically pure by telling us to wash body parts.   God says he intends to purify us.  How do you physically purify someone?

5)  What does "junuban" mean?
           junuban has been translated as "ceremonial', 'unclean', 'having had intercourse', 'state requiring bath'.  Which is it?   

 7) divorcing yourself of bias and all the extraquranic understanding, explain how you have come to understand that this washing is to be done before salat. God did not say BEFORE you do salat, wash your faces, etc.   God says "WHEN you stand up for THE salat, THEN wash you faces......"
Has anyone ever given such instructions about salat?  And what is "THE" salat?   

Will stop here for now.   

hawk99

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Re: Wudu, Ablution
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2013, 11:29:44 AM »
For all those who find this verse as translated to be accurate/clear and believe it relates to ablution, I have some questions:
1) who is God referring to in this verse
   A) men?
   B) women?
   C) men and women?

Peace justamuslim,

Are you referring to ayat 5/6?  If so, here are my answers to your quiz as far as my 
understanding as of today:

  "C" or males and females

God says clearly that intention is to purify us. 
2) what is physical purity? 
        Washing hands, face, feet?
         Taking a bath?
         Wiping hands and face with dirt? 

B.  Taking a bath.

3) if one has gone to the bathroom but does not have water, how does wiping hands and face with dirt lead to purity?  Hands and face have dirt and the private is dirty with urine or fecal matter.   So again, what is purity?   

Obviously this is not physical purity, a bath is physical purity, ablution is symbolic.

4) God does not say he wants us to be physically pure by telling us to wash body parts.   God says he intends to purify us.  How do you physically purify someone?

Please give source for this question.

5)  What does "junuban" mean?
junuban has been translated as "ceremonial', 'unclean', 'having had intercourse', 'state requiring bath'.  Which is it?   

I would say "D" state requiring bath.

7) divorcing yourself of bias and all the extraquranic understanding, explain how you have come to understand that this washing is to be done before salat. God did not say BEFORE you do salat, wash your faces, etc.   God says "WHEN you stand up for THE salat, THEN wash you faces......"
Has anyone ever given such instructions about salat?  And what is "THE" salat?   

I've read translations that read "when you rise for salat"(qum'tum,taqūma)

The salat is the ritual prayer.

For all those who find this verse as translated to be accurate/clear and believe it relates to ablution, I have some questions:

Nice quiz, so how did I do? have you ever thought about being a teacher?
P.S. whatever happened to no. 6?

ONE GOD

   :peace:
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