Author Topic: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"  (Read 4743 times)

jtc

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 03:40:08 PM »
Salaam Wakas,

Thanks for the link. I have read it several times. I think people are missing my question completely.

It seems as though you and others are taking the two phrases and switching them around. Let me try to explain.

Below is the closest literal translation I can think of.

Two edges/ends of the day, and proximal/near/adjacent parts of/from the night.

When you ask "proximal/adjacent/near" to what? I know that you are suggesting "near the day", BUT what happened to "parts"? In 'Arabic is are these phrases "backwards"? I am not an expert on 'Arabic grammar, but it seems like you and many others are suggesting that what the verse is actually saying is "parts of the night that are near to the edges of the day". Is this correct or am I not understanding you? If "zulafan" is translated as "near parts" then isn't this proximity relating to the night, not the day?

I found in Lane's Lexicon that "zulafan" can also mean "portions". Perhaps this might be a more fitting translation because "near parts of the night" (to me at least) means times that are NEAR but not actually DURING the night.

Any thoughts on this?

mmkhan

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 10:56:42 PM »
If "zulafan" is translated as "near parts" then isn't this proximity relating to the night, not the day?
Peace jtc,

Please allow me to clarify my part.

Yes, zulafan is relating to the night in 11:114 because of mina before al-layli.

Quote
I found in Lane's Lexicon that "zulafan" can also mean "portions". Perhaps this might be a more fitting translation because "near parts of the night" (to me at least) means times that are NEAR but not actually DURING the night.
If you take zulafan as portions, how will you translate zulfaa in 39:3?

Red: It is not referring to the parts or portions of night, hence cannot be during the night, but "nearness to night".

If you understand what I am saying here, you can go and take a look at my previous reply and now you may understand what I am saying, inshaAllah. Take a look at part where I relate this zulafan mina al-layli with salaat aleshaan. If you know the time of salaat aleshaan, you will understand what zulafan is referring to, inshaAllah.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path  :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

mirjamnur

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 12:50:37 AM »
Salam jtc and all
the big unsolved mystery of Salat- why we make it easy when we can make it complicated?????
I think brother Josef  make a good statement in his article, here:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3%20or%205%20prayers%20FM3.htm

peace

Wakas

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 02:20:25 AM »
peace jtc, all,

Quote
...it seems like you and many others are suggesting that what the verse is actually saying is "parts of the night that are near to the edges of the day". Is this correct or am I not understanding you?

Correct.

Please ask yourself the two questions I posted, and if you happen to have multiple options that's fine, simply note them down then eliminate the options using logic, cross-reference etc.

Let me clarify the first question:

near/proximal/adjacent parts to WHAT?

Using a word such as "near" requires a reference point. This is basic logic, thus what is the reference point? To me, there are only three possible options one can consider:

1) two edges of the day
2) one edge of the day (which one? some commonly state the latter edge)
3) the night

Re: 1) The verse clearly talks about two edges of the day, so that would seem like the most obvious reference point.

Re: 2) if one chooses one edge, and some commonly choose the latter edge, it should be noted that the verse does not use one edge as a reference point, choosing the latter is partly arbitrary, and is unevidenced.

Re: 3) choosing "near/proximal/adjacent parts of/from the night" firstly doesn't even make sense, hence some people say "early hours/parts", now whilst this meaning may exist in Classical Arabic dictionaries, Quran does not use ZLF to mean early. Secondly, "min" is a partitive, thus not all of the night, only part of it. Knowing this, I find it impossible to determine a time-range for such a salat. And so do others it seems, hence there is variance on how one interprets the other verses, e.g. 73:20 (note this verse does not talk about early night), 17:78-79  - resulting in overlapping times and/or very long continuous salat periods and/or variance over what quran-al-fajr and 17:79 refer to, i.e. are they part of salat or separate, when are they done etc etc. Why are some time-ranges defined and not others etc.


If you, or others, can resolve the issues of choosing (3) then feel free to try, and let us know what you come up with. AFAIK, there is one resolution, and that is to say salat-al-fajr is the same as quran-al-fajr, and that the regular/timed salat is two daily and the one during the night is additional/extra [17:79], but this still results in two-daily being the command. So, whatever way you slice it, AFAICS, it would be two salat-daily for the mumineen.

You can read more here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.0
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8797.0
which are from the original link I referenced above.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jtc

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2012, 12:22:55 PM »
Peace Wakas,

Thanks for your response; I appreciate you taking the time to explain things. I actually came to understand this last night at work before I cam home and read your reply.

The statement that makes the most sense to me is "and adjacent parts of the night" as this actually makes sense grammatically in English and points out that the "parts of the night" are "adjacent" to the "edges of the day".

Sometimes when translating the Qur'an literally, it won't be grammatically correct in English, but using a bit of common sense can make things clear.

I can see so clearly now, thank God, that 11:114 is only referring to "salat al fajr" and "salat al 'isha".


scaredmuslimah

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2012, 12:45:13 PM »
Peace Wakas,

Thanks for your response; I appreciate you taking the time to explain things. I actually came to understand this last night at work before I cam home and read your reply.

The statement that makes the most sense to me is "and adjacent parts of the night" as this actually makes sense grammatically in English and points out that the "parts of the night" are "adjacent" to the "edges of the day".

Sometimes when translating the Qur'an literally, it won't be grammatically correct in English, but using a bit of common sense can make things clear.

I can see so clearly now, thank God, that 11:114 is only referring to "salat al fajr" and "salat al 'isha".

Peace jtc,

Al Hamdulilah that you came to this conclusion.  I have trouble using Lane's Lexicon due to English being my first language, so I appreciate that you were able to put words on it finally.  And from what I have read of the thread, it makes complete sense.

-Amina

uq

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 06:21:54 PM »
Peace jtc, all,

Currently, my accepted meaning of "zulaf" is that which is listed as an entry in most classical lexicons, namely, "the hours when night and day meet".

There are a number of issues with this understanding, indeed, there are a number of issues with most understandings, being owed inevitably, in my view, to the plurality of the word, as opposed to its duality.

I can't say much more than this.

My studies are on-going.
uq

Wakas

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 02:12:42 AM »
peace uq,
I only saw your post now. Please see this post as it should clear things up:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

357

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Re: Trying to understand "zulafan min al layl"
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2015, 07:41:37 PM »
Well according to my understanding - it isn't a physical nearness it is a nearness in degree and in all the places refers to people getting nearer to Allah or Janna and not to any morning or evening. :confused:

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000411.pdf


26:90
"To the righteous, the Garden will be brought near"

34.37
It is not your wealth nor your sons, that will bring you nearer to Us in degree: but only .....

e.t.c

 :peace: