Author Topic: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?  (Read 37975 times)

Mazhar

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #320 on: April 25, 2019, 08:47:46 AM »
peace,

Why Qur'an calls kaba/ AMAH as 'ancient house'?(22:29) may be an indication that it is the same one used in ancient times for hajj by former prophets (and so is in the future).
  It is الصفة المشبهة i.e., Adjective resembling participle: Definite; masculine; singular; genitive. The Adjective resembling participle, or termed as Verbal Adjective, is a noun derived from an intransitive verb in order to signify the one who establishes an action with the meaning of permanence. This participle is used to indicate on an attribute for both the active voice as well as the passive. In other words, it is used in place of the active participle as well as the passive participle.

The context is the address to Iebra'heim [علیہ السلام] who raised this First House-[3:96] from foundations for the first time, on a plot/piece of land identified and earmarked for him by Allah, the Exalted. Thereby, it is beyond imagination to attribute meanings of antiquity to it.

Further study:

http://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(935).htm

Wakas

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #321 on: May 14, 2019, 05:03:02 AM »
peace Mazhar, all,

I was able to get clarification on the grammar issues discussed previously between Mazhar and myself.

I asked bro uq (who is fairly knowledgeable of Arabic):

Quote
1)
Mazhar seems to be claiming that in 2:149 & 2:150 the phrase "and from wherever thou exit" can ONLY refer to "al masjid al haram", i.e. the place exited from is "al masjid al haram", thus it can only be translated as:

"and from wherever thou exit it (al masjid al hram) so turn your face..."

2) that "haythu" can only mean wherever when it is followed by "ma", so in 2:!49 for example it cannot mean "wherever"

For further reading you can see from here onwards:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg418115#msg418115

He replied:

(1) There is no grammatical rule that would restrict 2:149-150 to al-masjid al-haram, it is a contextual inference. It can refer to (a) al-masjid al-haram or (b) any place from which one has journeyed/left. Because this is a contextual inference, one cannot claim with absolute conviction that it refers to (a) or (b).

(2) Yes, that's correct. However, حيث can carry a similar meaning to wherever if used indefinitely.

#####

Re: 2)
I dont see how changing "... and from wherever..." to "and from where..." changes anything in these verses. I will think it over.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #322 on: May 14, 2019, 08:15:52 AM »
peace Mazhar, all,

I was able to get clarification on the grammar issues discussed previously between Mazhar and myself.

I asked bro uq (who is fairly knowledgeable of Arabic):

He replied:

(1) There is no grammatical rule that would restrict 2:149-150 to al-masjid al-haram, it is a contextual inference. It can refer to (a) al-masjid al-haram or (b) any place from which one has journeyed/left. Because this is a contextual inference, one cannot claim with absolute conviction that it refers to (a) or (b).

(2) Yes, that's correct. However, حيث can carry a similar meaning to wherever if used indefinitely.

#####

Re: 2)
I dont see how changing "... and from wherever..." to "and from where..." changes anything in these verses. I will think it over.

حَيْثُ

Adverb of location, always in construct [إضافة] with a following sentence

حَيْثُ ما

اسم شرط جازم مبني على السكون في محل نصب على الظرفية المكانية


وَمِنْ حَيْثُ خَرَجْتَ فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ ٱلْمَسْجِدِ ٱلْحَرَامِۚ

And O you the Messenger! from whatever direction you exited the Sacred Mosque, Thereby,  for reason of being distant from it, cause your self face to face the dimension of the Sacred Mosque.

وَحَيْثُ مَا

Mohammed.

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #323 on: May 20, 2019, 01:52:46 AM »
peace Wakas,

if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?

"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise." [9:28]

irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
"Inform My servants that I am the Forgiver, the Merciful. And that My punishment is a painful retribution." [15:49-50]

Mazhar

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #324 on: June 12, 2019, 05:36:21 PM »
peace Wakas,

if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?

"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise." [9:28]

irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.



Locative Noun-Adverb of Place - ظرف المكان --It is a noun derived from imperfect verb. An adverb of place always talks about the location where the action of the verb is being carried out. Adverb of place tells us where something happens. They are usually placed after the main verb or after the clause that they modify. Adverbs of place do not modify adjectives or other adverbs.

وَلَا تُبَٟشِـرُوهُنَّ وَأَنتُـمْ عَٟكِفُونَ فِـى ٱلْمَسَٟجِدِۗ

Take note; you people should not establish intimate mutually consented matrimonial contact-intercourse on visiting them (respective wives) during the currency of the period you are devotee in reclusion inside the Mosques.


Preposition: فِـى  Rest in a place or during a time, and motion into a place. This signification is then transferred to the relation subsisting between any two things, the one of which is regarded as the place in which the other is, or happens, or into which it goes or is put.

A place is for entering into it and getting out of it:

وَصَدٌّ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَكُفْرُۢ بِهِۦ وَٱلْمَسْجِدِ ٱلْحَرَامِ وَإِخْرَاجُ أَهْلِهِۦ مِنْهُ أَكْبَـرُ عِندَ ٱللَّهِۚ

But take note that the act of hindering people from the Path of Allah the Exalted and persistent denial of it and restraining people from the sacred Mosque, and causing expulsion of its residents is a far greater matter in the sight of Allah the Exalted".


إِخْرَاجُ to cause exit, expel.

مَا كَانَ لِلْمُشْـرِكِيـنَ أَن يَعْمُـرُوا۟ مَسَٟجِدَ ٱللَّهِ شَٟهِدِينَ عَلَـىٰٓ أَنفُسِهِـم بِالْـكُـفْـرِۚ

Their visiting and managing the Mosques of Allah the Exalted has never been desirable for the Idol Worshipers-Polytheists being aware-witness upon their selves of disbelief.


It shows at the time of revelation, there existed at least three mosques in Arabian peninsula.

وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ مَسْجِدٙا ضِرَارٙا وَكُفْرٙا وَتَفْرِيقَاۢ بَيْـنَ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِيـنَ

And as for those who had earlier adopted a mosque for causing harm and disbelief and a state of division-disintegration amongst the believers —

وَإِرْصَادٙا لِّمَنْ حَارَبَ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ مِن قَبْلُۚ

And as a launching pad-station for him who foretimes intrigued-battled against Allah the Exalted and His Messenger:

وَلَيَحْلِفُنَّ إِنْ أَرَدْنَآ إِلَّا ٱلْحُسْنَىٰۖ

They will certainly swear and say: "We intended nothing except good".

وَٱللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّـهُـمْ لَـكَـٟذِبُونَ .9:107١٠٧

Mind it, Allah the Exalted bears witness emphasizing that they are certainly the liars. [9:107]

لَا تَقُمْ فِيهِ أَبَدٙاۚ

You the Messenger [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] should never ever stand within that mosque.


I hope it suffices to prove this location adverb is certainly spatial.

Masjid is there ever since House of Allah the Exalted was built by Ibrahim and Ismail alahissalam. It predates Qur'an (not Islam).

إِنْ أَحْسَنتُـمْ أَحْسَنتُـمْ لِأَنفُسِكُـمْۖ  وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُـمْ فَلَـهَاۚ

[And prescribed] "If you acted modestly, gracefully and generously you would have done it for your own selves, and if you people did evil, thereby, you will have to suffer its effect."

فَإِذَا جَآءَ وَعْدُ ٱلۡءَاخِـرَةِ

Eventually, when the time of second of the two promised occasions reached —

لِيَسُـــُٔووا۟ۥٓ وُجُوهَكُـمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُوا۟ ٱلْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَـرَّةٛ

Our Majesty appointed those mighty ones so that they may depress and sadden your faces, and so that they may enter the Mosque just as they had entered on the first occasion —

وَلِيُتَبِّـرُوا۟ مَا عَلَوْا۟ تَتْبِيـرٙا .17:07٧

And so that they smash what they had conquered, quite destructively. [17:07]


لِيَدْخُلُوا۟ We enter into a demarcated place.

قَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ غَلَبُوا۟ عَلَـىٰٓ أَمْرِهِـمْ

[reverting from parenthetic to their debate] Those who dominantly prevailed the debate, regarding the matter pertaining to the Young men of Cave, confidently said,

لَنَتَّخِذَنَّ عَلَيْـهِـم مَّسْجِدٙا .18:21٢١

"Surely, we pledge that in future we will adopt the newly built memorial over them as a mosque."[Refer 18:21]


One object of verb is elided. They were inside the Cave. The place upon them is obviously the roof of the cave. They were to built the memorial over there and hold it as mosque.


amin

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #325 on: June 12, 2019, 07:27:05 PM »
It looks a place of pilgrimage, where people spend time/days with certain rules and restrictions, disciplinary life, May be the temple  the symbol of pilgrimage is ancient and during Mohammed's time different religions started claiming it and Muslims after becoming majority sect completely dominated and prevented others visiting it. Quran claims others should not visit it from that year as they are 'Impure'.

amin

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #326 on: June 12, 2019, 07:37:55 PM »
I dont know if this word hermit has any connection with Arabic Haram or just coincidence,
but it looks functionally the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermitage_(religious_retreat)

Masjid al Haram could be religious retreat place/time.

Wakas

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #327 on: June 13, 2019, 04:55:37 AM »
peace,

peace Wakas,

if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?

"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise." [9:28]

irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.

I can appreciate this objection. I have discussed this previously, e.g.

Quote
Some confusion may be resulting from not appreciating that AMAH is a reference for the time-period/event of the inviolable months wherein al hajj is held and various restrictions/guidelines are in place at a locality.


https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608271.msg383916#msg383916
Quote
In the article, I propose it is referring to the specific mushrikeen in context, i.e. those who violated the treaty.

al hajj /the commemoration, is an event, taking place within the inviolable months, in a designated location. In this location various regulations are in place, run by the community. At this point in time, the believers had triumphed (i.e. the majority) thus going forward they were in charge of this event and the regulation of it. If they make a treaty with whoever, they can determine who attends, trades etc.
To be fair, this understanding requires understanding to some extent the chronology in Quran (especially the latter revealed chapters, e.g. 9), and how at the end the believers seemed to be forming into a confederation.

I am of the view the believers used this event to converge upon one location, leading to triumph. This can be understood in the article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org