Author Topic: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?  (Read 51685 times)

runninglikezebras

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #170 on: June 03, 2015, 03:36:25 PM »
Both (hebrew and arab) have borrowed qbl from aramaic.  They are linguistically called borrowed words/loanwords.  The original meaning though is 'facing/orientation/direction'.  You are quoting derivatives not the original aramaic meaning.  Daniel is well-known by experts for it's heavy use of aramaic borrowed words and so is Quran.

This is exactly where Wakas article is failing.  It fails to recognize this is a borrowed aramaic word and tries to find meaning using Quran only.  He's overlooking this word is older than Quran and the arab language.  It is not an arab word originally.  It has plenty of occurrences outside Quran like in Daniel, you have to test any thesis using those external sources as well.  You can't just alter the meaning of a word like you wish.  Linguistics are not a puzzle game.

Wakas article uses a methodology that tries to fit pieces (meaning) inside Quranic verses only, like a puzzle game.  He should do a better job at crosschecking the etymology of words first.  Not only is this overlooked in the article what concerns qibla but also concerning masjid which is a borrowed word as well.

@Wakas I hope you can appreciate this as a constructive criticism, crosscheck the etymology of these words yourself.  Don't take my word for it.  Once you take etymology into consideration as well, I'm sure the quality of your article will surpass the amateuristic level it is at now.  Imagine if all linguists would use this methodology, using one book only to discover the meaning of a word that is untranslated and borrowed from a donor other language.  It would be a total mess.  No one would agree with the meaning of anything.  It's not an objective methodology, it's entirely subjective which undermines all the effort that was put into the work.

Any linguist will tell you when studying the meaning of a loanword you are making a huge mistake by ignoring the donor language.  These words are borrowed untranslated.  You have to look at the donor language.

Other examples of loanwords are eg kindergarten in English, the donor language is german.  If you want to know what kindergarten means, you have to study the donor language.  There is just no other way.  What Wakas is doing, and others in this thread, is trying to understand the meaning of kindergarten using the English language only, ignoring the donor language, german, entirely.  One can see how that is a lost case to being with.  In case of qibla, the donor language is aramaic.  Wakas and others in this thread refuse to even look at the donor language and its use in known sources using the root word or having loaned the word as well.

Anyone that doesn't understand the importance of the above, is in my opinion incapable of shedding any light on the matter, but will rather cause more confusion.

If anyone is interested in online tools to check the etymology of quranic and arab words just private message me, I will hook a brother/sister up.  :jedi:

Peace

hicham9

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #171 on: June 03, 2015, 04:37:01 PM »
How absurd!

G-D's messenger didn't "borrow" any "foreign" words!

That's a misconception on your part.
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

runninglikezebras

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #172 on: June 03, 2015, 04:44:46 PM »
Gods messenger didn't borrow any words.  The arab language borrowed words from aramaic.  Plenty.  Languages are the product of human culture.  God nor his messenger  have anything to do with how a language evolves.  Clearly linguistics aren't your forte, hicham9.  I can't imagine you are claiming Gods messenger invented the arab language...   :rotfl:

Check any etymological reference on arab foreign words/loanwords.  This is not my opinion this is an established linguistic fact.



It's funny how Wakas realized in his article the grammar of masjid in Quran does not obey the proper arabic rules, of course it doesn't it's an imported word.  Just like qbl.  Instead of acknowledging it's importation he ties conclusions to flawed grammatical rules for places.  I'm truly amazed few on this forum are even aware of the aramaic foreign words  and loanwords inside Quran.  This should be basic knowledge.  The hebrew scriptures are filled with a similar phenomenon.  Which should be no surprise to those who are familiar with it.

I'm really sorry to be the big bad wolf that is breaking this news to you guys.  I know it will make things harder filling in your own desires into quranic meaning.

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hicham9

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #173 on: June 03, 2015, 05:28:15 PM »
Clearly linguistics aren't your forte, hicham9. 

You think you can "teach" me about linguistics when you can't even distinguish between (šemitic) prep. qbl and n.f. qblh!!?

You sure got some nerve, ninny!

I can't imagine you are claiming Gods messenger invented the arab language...   :rotfl:

I never made such a claim!

That's what you wish I had said!
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

runninglikezebras

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #174 on: June 03, 2015, 05:40:17 PM »
You think you can "teach" me about linguistics when you can't even distinguish between (?emitic) qbl and qblh!!?

You sure got some nerve, ninny!

I never made such a claim!

Edit: The first is clearly the root word as I stated the originally imported aramaic word, qblh is its derivative.  Are you refuting this?

In English equivalents this is facing and in front of.  I pointed this out to you many times before you are only referring to the derivative.  Apparently you fail to understand what that means.

Both (hebrew and arab) have borrowed qbl from aramaic.  They are linguistically called borrowed words/loanwords.  The original meaning though is 'facing/orientation/direction'.  You are quoting derivatives not the original aramaic meaning.  Daniel is well-known by experts for it's heavy use of aramaic borrowed words and so is Quran.

You insinuated Gods messenger invented the arab language here:


G-D's messenger didn't "borrow" any "foreign" words!

It insinuates those words didn't exist before the messenger.  I nowhere referred/involved Gods messenger in linguistic understanding of qbl.  That was your work.

But it might as well be total ignorance.  If you fail to address the root word and exclusively want to stick to the derivative form it seems to me you are trying to exclude and obscure the most original meaning of the word.  Not sure if you will understand it this time though.  qbl was the original import into hebrew and arab.  qblh is a derivative of qbl.

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hicham9

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #175 on: June 04, 2015, 07:15:22 AM »
The front of my house has a qeble that is north.  My garage has a qeble that is south etc.  All these are valid in aramaic and in arab.  None of those things, neither my house nor garage is travelling or going anywhere. Neither is Daniel crawling on his knees towards Jerusalem three times a day when the aramaic qbl is used in Daniel 6:11. Here's a transliteration:

6:11 vdny`l kdy ydj dy-rsym ktb` jl lbyth vkvyn ptyxn lh bjlyth ngd yrvslm vzmnyn tlth byvm` hv` brk jl-brkvhy vm&l` vmvd` qdm `lhh kl-qbl dy-hv` jbd mn-qdmt dnh.

Note the occurence of the aramaic qbl even in the hebrew version.  Interestingly enough this verse is explicitly used for a prayer direction, namely Jerusalem.  Daniel is nowhere near the vicinity of Jerusalem as he lived his entire lifetime in Babylonian captivity.  Need to say more?

Good thing traffic signs aren't in quranic arabic or you'd all be driving in the wrong direction  :)

I guess many of you have a problem with getting on their knees for God, regardless of the direction that is appointed by God.  So be it.  I think I provided conclusive evidence.

Pardon my ignorance rlz but,
how is biblical קֳבֵל [the equivalent of QA: qbl (قبل) ~ before, in front of; towards (or against)] the same as n.f. qblh (قبله) again!?
Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah. qblh is a derivative of qbl.


qblh (قبله) [like qbylh (قبيله)] is derived from the Arabian, šemitic root: qbl (ܩܒܠ) ~ to oppose, receive, or appeal to




Add.
The Qurān was not "revealed" in (what we call) "Classical Arabic" (but in: an* Arabian tongue).

CA was formulated by (post-qurānic) Ajamites (e.g., Sēbōē/Sibawayh); [cf., 16:103]!

~ Both the script and vocabulary (of the Qurān) bespeak an Aramean origin [ergo. Mesopotamia, not Hijaz]

* indefinite
Add.
The Qurān doesn't depend/rely on Aramaic lexicons [even though they are remarkably useful, and superior to CA dictionaries]!

E.g., the Qurānic term: mskyn (مسكين) is defined/understood as 'poor' in MSA (and many colloquial dialects of Arabic). The term is further rendered: a poor (man), in both Aramaic and C.Arabic lexicons! However, to understand the precise, intended meaning (of any Qurānic locution), one will need to dig back to the primary root meaning/s [ie. SKN ~ to inhabit, or shelter, ...] ~ and realize/figure out (on his/her own) that QA: mskyn actually denotes the: unsheltered [ie. a homeless (person)] = one without a mskn (مسكن) [an elementary meaning sorely absent in our fallible dictionaries!] ... Now, since G-D, our Master and Teacher, doesn't use synonyms [but antonyms (a feature of His Word)], the Qurānic term for a 'poor (person)' is fqyr [lit: needy (فقير)].

Ps.
Mind you, instead of just parroting what others think [such as: A. Jeffery, &c.]
I began studying Aramaic/Syriac ~ on my own [before you even joined FM].
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

runninglikezebras

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #176 on: June 04, 2015, 12:00:27 PM »
I'll let the moderators deal with the insulting part of your post.

You claim to be studying aramaic but still you can't translate qbl.

Try your translation in Daniel 6:11 and you will see your are deliberately obscuring the original meaning of 'facing'.  I understand you were once a sunni that prayed towards Mecca.  Which was a wrong direction.  Your denial of a direction (Temple Mount) is equally a mistake. 

Quote
CA was formulated by (post-qurānic) Ajamites (e.g., Sēbōē/Sibawayh); [cf., 16:103]!

This misconception can be explained by your demonstrated misunderstanding and denial of loanwords.

Your reaction to me using the argument of loanwords inside Quran:

How absurd!

G-D's messenger didn't "borrow" any "foreign" words!

That's a misconception on your part.


Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #177 on: June 04, 2015, 12:17:23 PM »
Double post

runninglikezebras

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #178 on: June 04, 2015, 12:21:44 PM »
Thanks to Wakas list, contrasting the verses to the thesis Masjid Al-Haram is Temple Mount will be easy for me:

Glory be to the One who took with/by His servant (at) night from al maSJD al haram to al maSJD al aqsa which We have blessed around it that We may show him of Our signs.

=> Temple Mount does not cause incompatibility: nightly travel from Temple Mount to the farthest removed masjid

We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a focal-point that will please thee: so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al maSJD al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction and indeed those who have been given the writ/decree know that it is the truth from their Lord.

=> Temple mount is the focal point

Those to whom We have given the decree/writ recognise it like they recognise their sons; and indeed a group of them surely hides the truth while they know
from wherever thou start/come forth so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al masjid al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction so that not will be for the people against you debate, except those who wronged among them. So do not fear them, but fear Me and that I may complete My favour upon you and so that you may be guided.

=> Denotes the ancestry of Temple Mount, recognize it like their sons meaning Temple Mount is the spiritual heritage of the entire lineage of prophets and messengers in the abrahamic tradition.  Every abrahamic messenger/prophet who received a decree knew about the importance of Temple Mount.

And do not fight them AAinda/(in the presence of) al masjid al haram until they fight you in it

=> Jerusalem was conquered manu militari by islamic forces.  They get instructed not to shed blood on Temple Mount itself unless they get attacked.

That is for one whose people are not at-hand/present (at) al masjid al haram
hindering from the way/path of God and to reject in it and (reject in) al masjid al haram, and expelling its people from it is a greater wrong AAinda/(in the presence of) God

=> Those hindering are the byzantine christian controllers of Jerusalem, a thorn in Gods eye.  The path also in literal understanding is valid: the roads the Jewish pilgrims undertook to reach Temple Mount were nowhere safe or secure. 

And why should God not punish them while they hinder from al maSJD al haram, and they were not its guardians/protectors! Its guardians/protectors are the conscientious
those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

=> This is an explicit reference to the refused access by the byzantine christians to the jews.  Backed up historical record.  The byzantines/christians were the worst guardians of Temple Mount limiting access and allowing access to polytheists.  After Jerusalem fell to islamic hands, Muslims granted unhindered access to the Jews.

They are those who concealed/rejected and hindered you from/concerning al maSJD al haram, and prevented the offering/gift from reaching its permitted/lawful place.

=> Again referring to the christians hindering the jews to access temple mount.

Certainly, God has confirmed His messenger's vision with truth/reality, surely you (plural) will enter al masjid al haram, if God wills, securing/trusting, unburdening/relieving your chiefs/representatives, and restraining/relinquishing not fearing.

=> God promises they will conquer Temple Mount and they will enter it.  Backed up by the historical record.

And let not the hatred of a people because they hindered you from/concerning al masjid al haram; that you transgress.
those whom you made a pledge AAinda/(in the presence of) al masjid al haram.

=> Again referring to those hindering, the byzantines/christians.

Have you made the watering of those undertaking HaJJ and development/cultivation (of) al maSJD al haram like the one who believed in God and the Last Day and strived in the cause of God?
the polytheists are impure so let them not approach/near al maSJD al haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then soon God will enrich you from His bounty

=> The Hajj to Temple Mount was already a fact for the Jews. Jews who were expelled from Jerusalem and were only allowed to visit Temple mount during a certain time of year.  Their security was not provided for while travelling there.  Nor did they receive any hospitality like food and water when they arrived there.  This while polytheists had free access to the place.  Muslims are instructed to provide to those undertaking HaJJ to Temple mount and secure their unhindered access.  The development/cultivation of Temple Mount refers to the deplorable state of Temple Mount was in under byzantine/christian rule: close to a garbage dump.

If you don't see how these verses are all pointing to the historical record of Jerusalem, I'm afraid you suffer from a blindness that isn't caused by lack of eyesight.

Wakas discovered these verses were revealed chronologically in the later period.  This ligns up perfectly with the first clashes of the muslims with byzantine forces.

Also understand this sheds light on the origin of Hajj.  The origin of Hajj is the expelling of Jews from Jerusalem by the byzantine christian controllers.  The instructions involving those undertaking Hajj to Temple Mount are countermeasures to the terrible treatment of the Jewish pilgrims to Temple Mount by the polytheists and christians.

I'll let the reader digest this (and hicham9 rage at me like we are used to) before adding more information.  But do realize the implications while reading this.  There is no such thing as a Jewish faith that is seperate from Islam.  There is only one God.  Only one faith.  The schism between Judaism and Islam has been nothing but the work of wrongdoers and sectarians turning on their heels.  You either accept one God, one faith, one qibla, one hajj OR become part of another sect that disputes and obscures the unity of Gods system. 

Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #179 on: June 04, 2015, 01:01:20 PM »
For those interested in the architectural evidence, check this link to find out how much the current mosque in mecca is a more recent/cheap replica of what used to be on Temple Mount.   A replica of the temple that used to stand on Temple Mount built as masquerade for those who turned on their heels (polytheists) and preferred worshipping a desert meteorite that is simply a meaningless rock. It also compares the shared traditions concerning Hajj, supporting my thesis the Hajj in Quran originates from the Jewish tradition.  And leaving no doubt what the original and only qibla is.

http://www.judaism-islam.com/similarities-between-masjid-al-haram-and-the-jewish-temple/