Author Topic: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)  (Read 14305 times)

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2012, 10:15:48 AM »
Quote from: Farouk
Kindly be explicit please.


Quote from: Wakas
And as for 2, you said: "The nujum are for us to be in 'yahtadoon' mode. (16/16)." To which I said: "As a side note, according to corpus.quran.com "yahtadoon" is verb form 8 reflexive meaning "guide themselves". Feel free to actually read what I said. My point in highlighting this was you seem to be taking it other than what corpus says, which is fine, but I like to point it out for the reader so they know exactly the "quality" of evidence you bring.



It's not what you use at all. What you employ is an UNCRITICAL use of Arabic terms and grammar which you then back up by selective quotations of the Quran, if I am ALLOWED to opine, that is. The Quran is not the criteria here at all. If it was, you would look at more than just verses but passages and indeed whole chapters.

Once you define your words, we shall test what you claim about my work/method...

What do you mean by "UNCRITICAL"? Please elaborate with regards to "Arabic terms and grammar".

Please define what you mean by "passages".

Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2012, 12:29:02 AM »

Once you define your words, we shall test what you claim about my work/method...

What do you mean by "UNCRITICAL"? Please elaborate with regards to "Arabic terms and grammar".

Please define what you mean by "passages".

Thanks.

Sure, your works display a disregard for the contextual 'feel' of the text. They are simply throwing words in from the dictionary to see what fits. They assume objectivity on the part of the lexicographer. In that way, they are UNCRITICAL.

A 'passage' in this context refers to a collection of verses which gives a coherent meaning.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2012, 02:02:10 AM »
Thanks for clarifying what you meant, to some degree.

Quote
Sure, your works display a disregard for the contextual 'feel' of the text.

Please clarify what you mean.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2012, 02:09:22 AM »
When one reads the context, there is an emerging theme which concords with the flow the ayat. This is something missing from your analysis.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2012, 05:05:51 AM »
Thanks for clarifying.

You said:
Quote
What you employ is an UNCRITICAL use of Arabic terms and grammar which you then back up by selective quotations of the Quran, if I am ALLOWED to opine, that is. The Quran is not the criteria here at all. If it was, you would look at more than just verses but passages and indeed whole chapters.

You then clarified:
Quote
Sure, your works display a disregard for the contextual 'feel' of the text. They are simply throwing words in from the dictionary to see what fits. They assume objectivity on the part of the lexicographer. In that way, they are UNCRITICAL.

A 'passage' in this context refers to a collection of verses which gives a coherent meaning.

Quote
When one reads the context, there is an emerging theme which concords with the flow the ayat. This is something missing from your analysis.

So let's address them one by one:

You said: "What you employ is an UNCRITICAL use of Arabic terms and grammar..."

Firstly, I use multiple sources for my grammar information. This allows me to check what one source states with other sources. If I was uncritical I'd simply adopt what was said without cross-referencing. But let's say they all or most agree on something, The Quran is my ultimate criterion, and I have demonstrated this with regards to "Arabic terms and grammar" multiple times, e.g.

1) in my works, I very frequently cite roots of words so they can be looked up in Quran and even provide links to look up these roots in Quran. In fact, I do this more than any author who writes works on Quran, that I know of at least.

2) I very rarely cite resources for readers to check which are by Traditional grammarians. Sure, I discuss them from time to time, but since I cite Quran resources most frequently for verification, it is rather obvious what I'm placing emphasis on.

3) I have often went against or proposed something most, and sometimes all, grammarians/resources do not say, e.g. in Quran434.com I point out whenever DRB is used with preposition "bi" it means a physical hit/strike. AFAIK no grammarian or resource says that.
Similarly, in my masjid study, I concluded it means "time of sjd" and whilst grammarians may cite that as a possibility, none seem to advocate that.
In my al masjid al haram study, I cite MKK to mean "crowding" and not a proper noun as all Traditional grammarians take it as, and I cite links to free-minds discussions showing why I did so, which critique the traditional grammarian views.


You said I do not consider chapter themes, contexts, and passages (i..e collection of verses).

In my study method:
http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html
I state: "Does my understanding conflict with another part of its message?
If so, it must be rejected. This includes the meaning of words, specific rulings, its general principles and limits. Cross-reference of words and subjects becomes a must.

6:114, 12:111, 15:90-91, 17:89, 16:89, 18:54, 39:27 - try to utilise and appreciate its complete system of concepts.

73:4-5 - in order to receive a weighty or profound word or saying, we need to arrange the likenesses in The Quran, e.g. cross-reference concepts/words/topics.

12:3, 18:54, 17:89, 7:176, 12:111 - look to its internal examples, stories within it give us lessons, it is a clarification for all things.


In my series on sujud I cite contexts of almost all occurrences.

In my latest article I even discuss chapter theme, quote:

Quote
This would serve to explain the whole content of chapter 17, which is a series of stories about messengership, and warnings, reasons for rejection, destruction of rejecting/deviant communities, paradigm shifts and God's will coming to pass. Hence likely why 17:2 uses "Choose no guardian/protector besides Me".

Quote
Some recurrent themes of the surrounding context in chapter 2 are that it is not the mere profession of a creed but righteous conduct that is proper, and the repeated exemplars of Abraham and to follow his creed, is something the believers had in common with the people of the book, placing an emphasis on unity. The believers utilising what Abraham followed and did as the blueprint for their future direction and ultimately success. These themes could explain the placement of these verses.

Even though each chapter containing a theme is an assumption, I tend to agree that seems to be the case.


So, to conclude, your assertions about my method/works is actually baseless. Please see above evidence.

What you could say is that perhaps I do not do it to the extent you'd like or I should do more often etc but that is different.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2012, 07:27:34 AM »
My next question for you:

Re: your blog post on 2:196
I stated: Translates ?mahilla? as ?place of effectiveness? with NQCR, NQE, NCADR.

Abbreviations:
NQCR = no Quran cross-reference
NQE = no Quranic evidence
NCADR = no classical Arabic dictionary reference


Question:
Can you provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2012, 08:24:17 AM »
I see 'uhilla' (5/1) as 'made available' and 'wahlul uqdatan min lisaani' as to remove impediments and to make speech effective. Therefor a 'mahilla' is a place where the hadya becomes effective.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2012, 09:59:37 AM »
I see 'uhilla' (5/1) as 'made available' and 'wahlul uqdatan min lisaani' as to remove impediments and to make speech effective. Therefor a 'mahilla' is a place where the hadya becomes effective.

"uhilla" ---> made available
"hlul" ---> to remove
"mahilla" ---> place where X becomes effective


Thanks for providing something, but I dont see much logic/reason behind the above, but that could be me. Interestingly you imply "hlul" in "wahlul uqdatan min lisaani" means "to remove", then for "mahilla" it is "place where X becomes effective" when "effective" seems to be the result of "hlul" in your example not the actual meaning of the word. A bit like using "Jim punched Bob and rendered him unconscious" then saying a derivative of punched, i.e. mahilla, means "place where X becomes unconscious". Bit of a leap if you ask me.

But as I said, could just be me. At the end of the day, it is all about putting evidence on the table, to allow others to weigh and consider.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2012, 07:36:49 PM »
Yes, this is what comes from a monodimensional logic. Instead of absorbing 'ahlul UQDAT', you simply disgested 'ahlul'.  It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle and putting pieces of a colour together and saying 'this is the picture'.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2012, 03:48:16 AM »
I should clarify what I said earlier:

"....when "effective" seems to be the result of "hlul" in your example not the actual meaning of the word. .."
should be:
""....when "effective" seems to be a result of "hlul" in your example not the actual meaning of the word. .."

Of course, this renders what you said even more of a leap, as you simply chose to focus on one possible result of the word. There could be others "flowing/eloquent/pleasant-sounding/articulate/accurate" etc.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org