Author Topic: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)  (Read 12569 times)

Wakas

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Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« on: October 05, 2012, 07:58:39 AM »
Methodology in Understanding Quran
Discussion between Wakas and Farouk.

This discussion is aimed at determining the best methods in understanding the Quran. This subject originally stemmed from a critique I wrote about a blog post by Farouk, which can be read here [link].

The format will primarily consist of a Q&A, in which each of us asks and answers a question at a time. Members are requested not to post on this thread, but if they wish to discuss something in this thread, can create a parallel thread.

My questions will primarily consist of getting answers to my original critique, so I will begin:


1) You said ? ?We are to complete the challenge and fertilisation for Allah, which is to establish and grow His system in the world. Whoever is prevented should...?

Prevented from establishing and growing His system in the world. If so that would mean pretty much everyone in the world would be classed as ?prevented?, because at best it would be a tiny tiny minority who could even claim to have ESTABLISHED and GROWN His system in the world.
Further, what establishing and growing means is anyone?s guess. It seems it would be subjective, and difficult to determine when this had been fulfilled, if ever.


You have already agreed that it would only be a minority who could even be said to achieve this. My question is: can you cite anyone, past or present (excluding prophets/messengers) that has "established and grown His system in the world"? And if you can, please give us your criteria on how you determined this.

Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 08:33:16 AM »
No I can't.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2012, 02:34:32 AM »
I wrote:

Quote
Abbreviations:
NQCR = no Quran cross-reference
NQE = no Quranic evidence
NCADR = no classical Arabic dictionary reference

2) You translate ?al hadiy? as ?progressions? with NQCR, NQE, NCADR.
Having an alternative translation for a word is fine but at least one would expect an explanation or some presentation of evidence for an unheard of word choice. Secondly, the word is actually ?al hadiy? (definite noun, singular) so it should have been translated as ?the progression?. The use of ?al? commonly signifies that this noun and what it refers to is well known to the addressed audience. Of course, if you were to translate it in this way, it would be more awkward for you to explain.


Question: Can you confirm "al hadiy" is indeed singular and provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?

Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2012, 05:05:54 AM »
Firstly, my work is not a translation. My work is notemaking. Therefore expecting literal translations is inappropriate.

Yes, al-hadiy is in singular.

You asked for :
1. evidence from the Quran.
What exactly do you mean by this? The Quran is meaningless in English and does not have the word 'progressions'.

2. classical Arabic dictionaries.
No, I can't.

Counter question: why is this question relevant?
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2012, 09:48:38 AM »
By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

Quote
Counter question: why is this question relevant?

As we agreed upon, one question at a time, and you opted to have your own thread for questions to me, thus if you wish to ask me the above, please do so in the correct thread.

###

I wrote:
Quote
3) Translates ?raas? as ?thought? with NQCR, NQE, NCADR.
Again, choosing an unusual word choice is fine if it can be backed up with some sort of reasoning/evidence, but you present none. Furthermore, it is plural, not singular.

Question: Can you confirm "raas" is indeed plural and provide evidence from Quran and/or Classical Arabic dictionary for your word choice?


Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2012, 11:11:03 AM »
Sorry, I haven't finished with your second question yet.

You asked me if the Q evinces the 'translation' of progressions. Kindly show me how you would go about doing so. Perhaps a demonstration would be good.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2012, 11:46:09 AM »

You asked me if the Q evinces the 'translation' of progressions. Kindly show me how you would go about doing so. Perhaps a demonstration would be good.

Your request seems to imply you have little idea as to how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean. This is unusual for a person who blogs on Quran. Perhaps you should highlight this on your blog.

As I said:
Quote
By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

If you have no idea how to look-up word occurrences in Quran and discuss how said word is used, then that is fine, simply state so, and move onto the next question.

If you claim you do not understand what I mean, that is also fine, simply state so and move onto the next question.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 12:16:01 PM »
Quote
Your request seems to imply you have little idea as to how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean. This is unusual for a person who blogs on Quran. Perhaps you should highlight this on your blog.

Yes, perhaps so. Perhaps I do know very little and therefore beg your indulgence. Whatever the case, the duty of clarification is on you since YOU levelled the question.

Kindly show me and demonstrate how the Quran would evince a particular translation. You asked for the evidence so presumably you must know what it looks like.

Quote
If you have no idea how to look-up word occurrences in Quran and discuss how said word is used, then that is fine, simply state so, and move onto the next question.

If you claim you do not understand what I mean, that is also fine, simply state so and move onto the next question

I am asking how YOU evidence any particular translation of a word. If you can write critiques about other people's work, then one would assume you know how to perform it yourself.

You asked me for 'quranic evidence'. Kindly show me WHAT is Quranic evidence through a demonstration. You used the phrase, Wakas. Now substantiate it you can.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 02:06:07 PM »
You seem to claim I did not clarify what I meant, but I did, re-quote below:

Quote
By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

You seem to claim you have no idea what I mean by the above and regardless, you have no clue of your own thinking how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean.
If your view is it is impossible to determine what a word means based on Quran, simply state so for all to see.

The above would be an interesting finding, but in any case, I offered a solution for such a situation, re-quote below:

Quote
If you have no idea how to look-up word occurrences in Quran and discuss how said word is used, then that is fine, simply state so, and move onto the next question.

If you claim you do not understand what I mean, that is also fine, simply state so and move onto the next question

Please state so, and move onto the next question.

If you wish to ask me for a demonstration of what I mean by "Quranic evidence", feel free to ask on the other thread. I consider my clarification said here self-explanatory.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 02:23:31 PM »
Quote
By "evidence from Quran" I mean utilising the word occurrences within it to extracting information about said word.

Sorry, but I will need a DEMONSTRATION of this so I can see what you mean. Can you provide a demonstration or not? It seems very suspicious that you use the phrase 'quranic evidence' yet you can't seem to provide it yourself.

Quote
You seem to claim you have no idea what I mean by the above and regardless, you have no clue of your own thinking how to show a word in Quran means what you think it to mean.
If your view is it is impossible to determine what a word means based on Quran, simply state so for all to see.

I understand the words fine and I haven't stated that it's impossible. However, I want to see how any evidence for meaning is 'quranic'. Lets talk about your view of 2/196. Would you say that YOUR translation there is QURANIC?

Quote
If you wish to ask me for a demonstration of what I mean by "Quranic evidence", feel free to ask on the other thread. I consider my clarification said here self-explanatory

What you consider has no bearing at all in this instance. You levelled a criticism and as such, created positive statements with that criticism. You wish for 'quranic evidence'? Show me by demonstration what that is so I can reproduce it for you if I can. Does your interpretation of 2/196 show 'quranic evidence' of meaning? If it does, I will go there so we can see how 'quranic' it really is.

Why would I go to another thread for this? This is YOUR critique. You are responsible for fully furnishing the examples required for your critique to be answered. IF you know what 'quranic evidence' look like, show us please :)
Farouk A. Peru