The Challenge Yet To Be Met

[Eve]

Peace Bodhisvasti,

When I read that God knows our future, i understood it as God knows all our possible diferent future depending upon the choices we make. So this doesnt take away our free will. For example the choice whether I should be a believer or not is entirely on me, but God knows the end result of both the possible choices. Whether i choose to beleive or not is entirely on me & this shows that what I choose is not determined by God but God being God knows how my future would be if I  a) I choose to be a beleiver b) I do not become a believer.

Hope I was able to explain my understanding.

Peace!

[Gnosis Cupitor]

Peace Bodhisvasti.

Let me give you this example, in our system the exam board know the answers and grades to all the questions, (Also the teachers more or less know who is going to pass) .Does this mean do not bother to test the students?

I do not understand your way of reasoning? The two actions are " independent".

Peace.

good logic,

          The point of a test is to learn. For God, there is supposedly nothing to learn, for He knows all. Creation is the exam board, and God knows the answers to everything, before even handing out to the test. God knows before creating that exam board, what students will pass, and who will fail. God  made those who would take the test, knowing if they would pass or fail, before even making those testers. So why bother testing?

Peace Bodhisvasti,

When I read that God knows our future, i understood it as God knows all our possible diferent future depending upon the choices we make. So this doesnt take away our free will. For example the choice whether I should be a believer or not is entirely on me, but God knows the end result of both the possible choices. Whether i choose to beleive or not is entirely on me & this shows that what I choose is not determined by God but God being God knows how my future would be if I  a) I choose to be a beleiver b) I do not become a believer.

Hope I was able to explain my understanding.

Peace!

Eve,

          I understand what you mean. But you still don't take into account that God knew before the moment of Creation, what you would think, say, and do, before even creating you. At least, this is the mainstream thought as to Gods omniscience.

          So yes, God knows the outcome of your decision, but he also knew the decision you would make in the first place, everything that you would think, say, and do, even before your life began. Before your parents life began, He knew what you would think, say, and do. Before Adam and Eve, he knew what you would think, say, and do.

          And to further expand this even more, even before you made it to Heaven, before God created the Universe, He knew all that you would think, say, and do, in Heaven, for all of eternity.

          Essentially, this means that God destined people for Hell, and people for Heaven. The only way around this is that God does not know the future, other then what he will do, guarantee. He can't know what you will think, say, and do in the future, or else His very existence is madness. Our making, our having souls, would have to stop this all-knowing in someway, or Creation is pre-destined. God did not have to make this universe, knowing all of this would happen. He could have created that universe, knowing all of that would happen, where all made it to Heaven.

[good logic]

Peace Bodhisvasti.

If GOD knew those HE was giving HIS gift to, but they had to deserve it. What is wrong with HIM knowing before hand?

It is for their benefit that HE created. Even though HE knew who deserves and who does not deserve.

It is the only way all the creations get to know" free will".
Peace.

[Liha]

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

"Essentially, this means that God destined people for Hell, and people for Heaven." I don't think it is quite so clear cut. I think God is aware of all outcomes but has given us the gift of free will to make what we can of our choices and lives. Plus, God has the clear advantage of being our Creator and knowing us, our strengths and weaknesses's and our motivations inside out. We sadly are not privy to the same insight into our Creator other than knowing God is merciful, compassionate and benevolent and does not like lying oppressors!

There are so many factors at play that influence, shape and determine the choices we make: faith, personality, circumstances, surroundings, culture, ethnicity, gender and the influence and impact of society & other people and loads more I have not even mentioned. All I can think is how amazing that our Creator is able to factor all these and more before coming to any decision to decide who is worthy of heaven or hell.

I don't doubt that the end result will be just no matter how unjust and nuts the world itself can appear to be at present.

Peace.

[Bender]

There is no need to go into the Quran and pull out the multiple verses that say God knows everything.

Salaam Bodhisvasti

Then it is easy to give a ayaat if it's in almost every sura.

It's said in just about every Surah, I think.

That's what you think but as per my understanding it's not correct.
Or maybe I have to say that your understanding on those verses is not correct.
Please try to understand them with a clear mind (thus without the concept that you have now about it)

Creation is a pointless experiment, as there is nothing for God to learn. You do not 'test' to see something you already know will come to fruition. You already know the answer. No matter what.

Creation is evil, as God knew before the moment of its beginning, who would and would not go to hell, thus, pre-destination at its highest level.

Again you have a predestinated concept in your mind.

Tell me what do you understand about these verses:
21:16 وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
21:17 لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ
21:18 بَلْ نَقْذِفُ بِالْحَقِّ عَلَى الْبَاطِلِ فَيَدْمَغُهُ فَإِذَا هُوَ زَاهِقٌ ۚ وَلَكُمُ الْوَيْلُ مِمَّا تَصِفُونَ

 

Everything has a cause, even the Universe, this I will agree with. However...

Again. If God knows all, then what possible point could there be in creating? Unless there is something in our making that stops him from kinowing what we will do, then we were already destined for Heaven or Hell.

I have thought about it alot lately. And the only conclusion I can come up with is this...

In making us, God created the so called 'free will', that free will being our ability to contemplate, to think and understand a thing. But God can't know what we will think in the future, exactly what we will do, etc. Otherwise it is all for nothing, pointless, and evil.

You see. I can understand and agree with a God who created the Universe, and sentient beings such as ourselves, simply to worship Him. To give the good ever lasting bliss, and the bad ever lasting torture. A God who really loves his Creation, and wants nothing more then for us to earn Heaven.

But this can't exist with knowing everything that we will think, say, and do in the future, before the moment of Creation. Otherwise, that God would have pre-determined us for Heaven and Hell. It simply does not make sense. And it only an evil thing.

Yeah. I see alot of people replying with "Of course we have free will!", but if you believe in an all knowing God, one who knew BEFORE Creation, all that you would THINK, say, and do, then there is no real free will. It means that He destined some of us for Hell, and some of us for Heaven, period. Period. There is no getting around that. We do not have true free will if this was all going to be thought, said, and done in the first place, which it would, simply because God knew all before the moment of Creation.

Let me give you some verses to ponder on.
9:16 أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تُتْرَكُوا وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللَّـهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا مِنكُمْ وَلَمْ يَتَّخِذُوا مِن دُونِ اللَّـهِ وَلَا رَسُولِهِ وَلَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلِيجَةً ۚ وَاللَّـهُ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ
3:140 إِن يَمْسَسْكُمْ قَرْحٌ فَقَدْ مَسَّ الْقَوْمَ قَرْحٌ مِّثْلُهُ ۚ وَتِلْكَ الْأَيَّامُ نُدَاوِلُهَا بَيْنَ النَّاسِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّـهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَيَتَّخِذَ مِنكُمْ شُهَدَاءَ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ لَا يُحِبُّ الظَّالِمِينَ
57:25 لَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلَنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَنزَلْنَا مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْمِيزَانَ لِيَقُومَ النَّاسُ بِالْقِسْطِ ۖ وَأَنزَلْنَا الْحَدِيدَ فِيهِ بَأْسٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّـهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ وَرُسُلَهُ بِالْغَيْبِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ قَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ

I know there are verses which on first sight you will find them contradicting, but read/study them very carefully and you will inshaAllah understand the concept better and better.

InshaAllah this will help you out a little.

I wanted to do open a thread on this but I have not so much time and I am little bit lazy, but inshaAllah when I have enough time and I am 100% confident on my understanding then inshaAllah I will try to open a thread on this.

Salaam,
Bender

[Gnosis Cupitor]

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

"Essentially, this means that God destined people for Hell, and people for Heaven." I don't think it is quite so clear cut. I think God is aware of all outcomes but has given us the gift of free will to make what we can of our choices and lives. Plus, God has the clear advantage of being our Creator and knowing us, our strengths and weaknesses's and our motivations inside out. We sadly are not privy to the same insight into our Creator other than knowing God is merciful, compassionate and benevolent and does not like lying oppressors!

There are so many factors at play that influence, shape and determine the choices we make: faith, personality, circumstances, surroundings, culture, ethnicity, gender and the influence and impact of society & other people and loads more I have not even mentioned. All I can think is how amazing that our Creator is able to factor all these and more before coming to any decision to decide who is worthy of heaven or hell.

I don't doubt that the end result will be just no matter how unjust and nuts the world itself can appear to be at present.

Peace.

But it is that clear cut.

Does God know everything, past, present, and future, being that there is nothing at all hidden from God? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not know before Creation, who would, and would not, go to Heaven or Hell? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not pre-destine us for Heaven and Hell, when he knew that if he created the universe in this way, all of this would happen, and if he created in that way, all of that would happen? (Yes or No) Yes.

Salaam Bodhisvasti

Then it is easy to give a ayaat if it's in almost every sura.

That's what you think but as per my understanding it's not correct.
Or maybe I have to say that your understanding on those verses is not correct.
Please try to understand them with a clear mind (thus without the concept that you have now about it)

Again you have a predestinated concept in your mind.

Tell me what do you understand about these verses:
21:16 وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
21:17 لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ
21:18 بَلْ نَقْذِفُ بِالْحَقِّ عَلَى الْبَاطِلِ فَيَدْمَغُهُ فَإِذَا هُوَ زَاهِقٌ ۚ وَلَكُمُ الْوَيْلُ مِمَّا تَصِفُونَ

 
Let me give you some verses to ponder on.
9:16 أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تُتْرَكُوا وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللَّـهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا مِنكُمْ وَلَمْ يَتَّخِذُوا مِن دُونِ اللَّـهِ وَلَا رَسُولِهِ وَلَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلِيجَةً ۚ وَاللَّـهُ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ
3:140 إِن يَمْسَسْكُمْ قَرْحٌ فَقَدْ مَسَّ الْقَوْمَ قَرْحٌ مِّثْلُهُ ۚ وَتِلْكَ الْأَيَّامُ نُدَاوِلُهَا بَيْنَ النَّاسِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّـهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَيَتَّخِذَ مِنكُمْ شُهَدَاءَ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ لَا يُحِبُّ الظَّالِمِينَ
57:25 لَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلَنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَنزَلْنَا مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْمِيزَانَ لِيَقُومَ النَّاسُ بِالْقِسْطِ ۖ وَأَنزَلْنَا الْحَدِيدَ فِيهِ بَأْسٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّـهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ وَرُسُلَهُ بِالْغَيْبِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ قَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ

I know there are verses which on first sight you will find them contradicting, but read/study them very carefully and you will inshaAllah understand the concept better and better.

InshaAllah this will help you out a little.

I wanted to do open a thread on this but I have not so much time and I am little bit lazy, but inshaAllah when I have enough time and I am 100% confident on my understanding then inshaAllah I will try to open a thread on this.

Salaam,
Bender

Bender. Next time please post an english translation of any verses you wish to use. No offense, but I feel as if you wasted my time on purpose with those verses. Because they are just more propaganda being pushed out, none of those really addresses God knowing everything. I am trying to find the truth. I want a clear cut answer, preferably from the Quran. All I want, is a logical and rational explanation for the verses saying he knows everything. Because as I have shown you, for that to be, would mean that billions were destined for Hell, eternal suffering, for God knew before making this universe, all who would go there, because he made the universe just so.

For future reference to anyone who replies to this post. Do not post verses that have nothing to do with this conundrum. Just answer the issue directly. Please, and thank you in advance.

"2:29 It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned
to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge
of all things."

That is just one verse of many, which say that God has "knowledge of all things".

To have knowledge of all things, this would mean, all things. The past, present, and future, and everything in it.

Do you deny that God knows everything? Or does he only know the past and present, all that is in it, and not the future?

Why don't you try answering the questions above. They are clear cut yes or no questions. You can't get around it.

[Someone]

Peace all,

6:12 قل لمن ما في السموت والأرض قل لله كتب على نفسه الرحمة ليجمعنكم إلى يوم القيمة لا ريب فيه الذين خسروا أنفسهم فهم لا يؤمنون
6:54 وإذا جاءك الذين يؤمنون بءايتنا فقل سلم عليكم كتب ربكم على نفسه الرحمة أنه من عمل منكم سوءا بجهلة ثم تاب من بعده وأصلح فأنه غفور رحيم
6:133 وربك الغني ذو الرحمة إن يشأ يذهبكم ويستخلف من بعدكم ما يشاء كما أنشأكم من ذرية قوم ءاخرين


6:12    Say: "To whom is all that is in the heavens and the earth?" Say: "To the god." He has decreed mercy on Himself, that He will gather you to the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Those who have lost their souls, they do not trust.


6:54    And if those who trust in Our signs come to you, then say: "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits a wrongdoing out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful."


6:133 And your Lord is the Rich, possessor of Mercy. If He wished, He could remove all of you and bring after you whom He pleases, just as He established you from the seed of another people.

The all-knowing god decreed mercy upon himself, while endowing us with the ability to acquire knowledge to help ourselves avoid many pains and hardships. He also allows us to try and to commit errors, many times he is forgiving, not punishing for every wrongdoing - else nobody would still be alive.

By "imposing" mercy on himself, the creator wished to share some of his knowledge, control over the laws of nature, decision-making... with humans. It implies that human's future depends mostly (if not solely) on his own cumulative knowledge-decisions-results; Humans acquired some control over nature, contrary to other species. The god certainly knows the (our)past and the (our)present, he also knows our future as soon as we make a decision, only because he restricts himself and allows us a partial freedom of choice.

He knows also that because of our weaknesses, most will end up mis-using this ability and harming themselves and others, thus they would deserve their sufferings.

The creator knows all our possible futures, the list of these possible futures changes in real-time as soon as we make a decision. A trend can then be deduced.

All of this is easy for the creator, no thing is like him.

[good logic]

Peace Bodhisvasti.

First, the answer to your questions is:  YES., YES and YES

So, GOD has got the " video tape" of every little minute detail of what is going to happen. In fact when GOD speaks about Resurrection day, sometimes HE uses the past tense ( in Qoran).

Second, You need  to know the following:

Who is GOD?

What is Heaven? and What is Hell?

What is  Eternity as define by GOD?

Why does GOD create?

Why does GOD not create only the "Good"?

How much knowledge is available for us?  Why?

Have we got the knowledge to answer some or all these questions?

Third, GOD asked  few things from us among them the following:

- Trust.
- Patience.
- Seek HIM for more knowledge.

You are asking a very important question, you may not get your answer, what next?

Does it have to come to trust?

Good luck.

Peace.

[mmkhan]

Does God know everything, past, present, and future, being that there is nothing at all hidden from God? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not know before Creation, who would, and would not, go to Heaven or Hell? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not pre-destine us for Heaven and Hell, when he knew that if he created the universe in this way, all of this would happen, and if he created in that way, all of that would happen? (Yes or No) Yes.

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

Lets say, its like a game, there are many doors to enter, each door has a message sticked on it saying where it takes you. One door's message also says that it may take you directly to the God. Now all participants are allowed to enter any door of their choice. So, what is predestine here? Allah knows that which door each participant will chose to enter, so? It is His knowledge.

Another example: lets take a calculator, the maker of it knows that which keys displays what and he also know the results for multiplying, dividing numbers, etc. etc. The user got a choice to press any key and if a user press 2 + 2 the result will be 4 always, even if he loves much to get 5 as a result.

This is how the Creation is made, based on formulas, if you do this, then it will effect you like this and so on. The users are given free choice for what he wants to chose for himself/herself. If user wants to chose something bad, then the effect will surely be bad, that does not mean, TheCreator has predestined this for him.

And 7:179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

[Liha]

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

Lets say, its like a game, there are many doors to enter, each door has a message sticked on it saying where it takes you. One door's message also says that it may take you directly to the God. Now all participants are allowed to enter any door of their choice. So, what is predestine here? Allah knows that which door each participant will chose to enter, so? It is His knowledge.

Another example: lets take a calculator, the maker of it knows that which keys displays what and he also know the results for multiplying, dividing numbers, etc. etc. The user got a choice to press any key and if a user press 2 + 2 the result will be 4 always, even if he loves much to get 5 as a result.

This is how the Creation is made, based on formulas, if you do this, then it will effect you like this and so on. The users are given free choice for what he wants to chose for himself/herself. If user wants to chose something bad, then the effect will surely be bad, that does not mean, TheCreator has predestined this for him.

And 7:179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

Salaam mmkhan,

Thats a really good way of looking at it. I think its easy to confuse Gods knowledge of our actions as being our predestined fate. I agree that its our choices in life that will determine where we end up.

Peace.