The Challenge Yet To Be Met

[Hoppean]

6:78 Then, when he beheld the sun rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer! This one is the greatest [of all]!" - but when it [too] went down, he exclaimed: "O my people! Behold, far be it from me to ascribe divinity, as you do, to aught beside God!

6:79 Behold, unto Him who brought into being the heavens and the earth have I turned my face, having turned away from all that is false; and I am not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him."

So "I turned my face..." etc means: "I did it all thanks to my own "free will" and God had nothing to do with it; even though two verses earlier I confessed that if God didn't guide me I would be among those in error". Nice! If that's the extent of your argumentation, then nothing else needs to be said.

[savage_carrot]

So "I turned my face..." etc means: "I did it all thanks to my own "free will" and God had nothing to do with it; even though two verses earlier I confessed that if God didn't guide me I would be among those in error". Nice! If that's the extent of your argumentation, then nothing else needs to be said.

Read from 6:75. Abraham exercised his reasoning. This anyone can do. We need no scripture and no special people to see the reality of God which is all around us even if we close our eyes. Bringing up but who guides first! who sees first? is useless. Our inbuilt mechanisms for reasoning, conscience, intuition etc are taken into account. We are built for guidance, we have guidance, we have to choose to see and so on. The extent of your 'solid' argumentation is to say "God is God we are nothing" ...  thanks, that explained everything and not just to the OP.

[Bender]

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

How did you come to this understanding, is it from the Quran or from some atheist sources?
If it's from the Quran can you please quote some verses.

Thank you,
Bender

[Abdelilah]

Peace.

Would I not be a Muslim if God, before Creation, twisted it just a bit to where I was born and raised in say Saudi Arabia?

A blind follower born in Saudi Arabia is no different than one born in, say, Canada.


Abdelilah

[Gnosis Cupitor]

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

How did you come to this understanding, is it from the Quran or from some atheist sources?
If it's from the Quran can you please quote some verses.

Thank you,
Bender

Sorry everyone. I have been away for a few days. So I couldn't respond at all, until now.

There is no need to go into the Quran and pull out the multiple verses that say God knows everything. It's said in just about every Surah, I think.

And none of these answers really answer the fact that, in believing this...

Creation is a pointless experiment, as there is nothing for God to learn. You do not 'test' to see something you already know will come to fruition. You already know the answer. No matter what.

Creation is evil, as God knew before the moment of its beginning, who would and would not go to hell, thus, pre-destination at its highest level.

Everything has a cause, even the Universe, this I will agree with. However...

Again. If God knows all, then what possible point could there be in creating? Unless there is something in our making that stops him from kinowing what we will do, then we were already destined for Heaven or Hell.


I have thought about it alot lately. And the only conclusion I can come up with is this...

In making us, God created the so called 'free will', that free will being our ability to contemplate, to think and understand a thing. But God can't know what we will think in the future, exactly what we will do, etc. Otherwise it is all for nothing, pointless, and evil.

You see. I can understand and agree with a God who created the Universe, and sentient beings such as ourselves, simply to worship Him. To give the good ever lasting bliss, and the bad ever lasting torture. A God who really loves his Creation, and wants nothing more then for us to earn Heaven.

But this can't exist with knowing everything that we will think, say, and do in the future, before the moment of Creation. Otherwise, that God would have pre-determined us for Heaven and Hell. It simply does not make sense. And it only an evil thing.

Yeah. I see alot of people replying with "Of course we have free will!", but if you believe in an all knowing God, one who knew BEFORE Creation, all that you would THINK, say, and do, then there is no real free will. It means that He destined some of us for Hell, and some of us for Heaven, period. Period. There is no getting around that. We do not have true free will if this was all going to be thought, said, and done in the first place, which it would, simply because God knew all before the moment of Creation.

[GODsubmitter]

Of course we have a free will to some small degree, a small amount.

It is futile to think, or argue, FROM the God's point of view, because, not only we cannot understand God, the whole universe, and myriad of realities of the Universe, let alone the complete and whole vision and thought God might have of everything, but we cannot even imagine God's reasons!

It is utterly presumptuous for man to imagine himself in the place of God!

[Gnosis Cupitor]

GODsubmitter.

It's not that it is presumptous, or futile to think from the point of view of God. It's that you can't justify omniscience on the level that God is typically thought of having. Everyone I ask this question to can never answer it directly, or if they do, it doesn't make sense to the rational mind.

God knows everything, past, present, and future, nothing is hidden from God.
+
God made the Universe, Creation.
+
God knew before making the Universe, who would and would not go to Heaven and Hell. Because he made it just so.
=
God pre-destined billions for eternal suffering in flame.


There just is no way of getting around this. Except for one route. God knows all, past, and present only. He can't know the future. He can know what he will guarantee, such as the last day, but he has no knwledge of wether or not I will be worthy of Heaven or Hell until my life unfolds and I die.

That is the only way to justify this. I think I will just continue to read the Quran, pray, and hope I find the answer to this dilemma.

Thank you everyone for your answers.

[good logic]

Peace Bodhisvasti.

You need to know about the " Original sin". GOD to start with ( Before this life) created beings that make up their own minds.

GOD s system( was/is and always will be ) is that HE Alone sustains HIS creation. HE requires total trust /loyalty and obedience.

We doubted that HE alone can be" The  Only GOD".   We were willing ( our own choice)to accept others of HIS creation as " gods/authority" ie we rebelled against HIS system. ( Original sin)

GOD also knew that some will redeem themselves back to HIS system, that is why HE created this universe to give them that chance.

The attributes of GOD indicates why HE creates, gives the choice and allows HIS creations to make their own decisions.

Even in our system , more than one leader leads to division/wars/chaos...

In GOD s system HE is the only GOD/ Authority... That allows unity/order/happiness...

This life is that test. That is why GOD created death. ( First death after the original sin " Heavenly feud", second death after this life then resurrection and offer of choice " GOD or not GOD").

This is all in Qoran. ( Whether GOD knew all along does not affect the choice of HIS subjects/beings/creations.)

Peace.

[Gnosis Cupitor]

Peace Bodhisvasti.

You need to know about the " Original sin". GOD to start with ( Before this life) created beings that make up their own minds.

GOD s system( was/is and always will be ) is that HE Alone sustains HIS creation. HE requires total trust /loyalty and obedience.

We doubted that HE alone can be" The  Only GOD".   We were willing ( our own choice)to accept others of HIS creation as " gods/authority" ie we rebelled against HIS system. ( Original sin)

GOD also knew that some will redeem themselves back to HIS system, that is why HE created this universe to give them that chance.

The attributes of GOD indicates why HE creates, gives the choice and allows HIS creations to make their own decisions.

Even in our system , more than one leader leads to division/wars/chaos...

In GOD s system HE is the only GOD/ Authority... That allows unity/order/happiness...

This life is that test. That is why GOD created death. ( First death after the original sin " Heavenly feud", second death after this life then resurrection and offer of choice " GOD or not GOD").

This is all in Qoran. ( Whether GOD knew all along does not affect the choice of HIS subjects/beings/creations.)

Peace.

None of this addresses the fact that God knew, even before Creation, when there was nothing, who would and would not go to Heaven and Hell. That means God knew that if he created in this way, this universe would happen, of if he created that way, that universe would happen. If he created this way, these people would go to hell, or if he created that way, those people would go to hell.

There can be no real test, when the answer to that test is already known before it is even handed out. It would be like writing myself a test, asking when I was born, I already know the answer, so why would I ask myself that?

[good logic]

Peace Bodhisvasti.

Let me give you this example, in our system the exam board know the answers and grades to all the questions, (Also the teachers more or less know who is going to pass) .Does this mean do not bother to test the students?

I do not understand your way of reasoning? The two actions are " independent".

Peace.