Author Topic: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?  (Read 1500 times)

Emil

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 02:28:52 PM »

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[6:38] Has nothing to do with Lawful and unlawful foods.
No sir, but it has to do with our relationship with animals and that we should regard all living creatures as God's creation. Therefore we should not pedigree animals to the point where they cease to be animals. We should not see livestock as a "product", they too demand respect as any of God's creature. We should not treat them the way we do. Whenever humans are torturing humans in slave ships or concentration camps we all react ...."oh, what horrible people" we say......but when an animals are treated the same only a handful react, the rest turn a blind eye or even worse, shrug their shoulders.

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God did not say "oh you believe do not eat chemicals" [2:195] from Quran Kareem is not refering to lawful and unlawful food.  Here is the context:


Yeah that is true. In my native tongue Quran 2:195 can be paraphrased as "do not physically harm yourself" so we got bit of a translation problem here....
Some of the chemicals found in food nowadays can hardly be recognised as healthy, that you have to agree with.

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sorry, no mention of clean food in  [2:168]
[2:168]O people, eat from what is on the earth as good and lawful, and do not follow in the footsteps of the devil. He is to you a clear enemy.

So what does "good" imply? Tasty?

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Allah has blessed the believers with an easy path to follow don't complicate it.

No, I guess you are right. Let's just focus on the ritual of halal slaughter and if gelatin is forbidden or not. Let's just ignore the belgian blues and American chicken farms and the dying oceans. It is better for our salvation to make sure the chicken is slaughtered facing Mecca, not that it grows twice as fast and gets twice as big as God intended a chicken to ever be.

Peace

Emil

hawk99

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 03:28:15 PM »
Peace Emil,

I only gave you my point of view, you can survive off boiled water if you like.

Peace   O0
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Emil

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2012, 01:02:32 AM »
Peace Emil,

I only gave you my point of view, you can survive off boiled water if you like.

Peace   O0

Salam Hawkninetynine

So sir, you didnt. You questioned mine. I know you are not one of "those" people I am getting annoyed at, if I am came across harshly I apologise.
You know the people that say we should not eat pork because pork is not clean and they use scientific research that states pork gives you cancer, stomach problems, kidney problems and whatnot to prove their point...............On the same time they are munching away on "halal" food stuffed with preservatives and other chemicals.....Or the ones who are completely dogmatic they refuse to look beyond the ritual slaughter. As long as they have that they think they are pleasing God.... In those countries where halal slaughter is forbidden because of cruelty to animals muslims proclaim the animal does not suffer during the slitting of the throat. This is probably true, but as believers that God is in everything they should also make sure the animal does not suffer when brought up in the farm/transported to the slaughter house. Unfortunately they do not......

I live in the country but in a community with a fairly large muslim group. There is a supermarket that sells halal food, most of the products are imported from.....Turkey I think it is......anyways, a country quite far away....
So in this supermarket you got turkey produced locally (literally around the corner) and halal turkey produced in Turkey...Turkey from Turkey  :confused:
One turkey has literally walked by itself to the supermarket. The other has been transported via lorry/ship/airplane a good distance..........Am I to choose the turkey that the word bismillah has been uttered upon when slaughtered or should I choose the turkey with the smallest carbon footprint? Which turkey is more pleasing to God? The one that contributes to pollution or the one that is not slaughtered by islamic ritual?


Fallen Angel 21098

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2012, 03:38:11 AM »
I haven't read through the whole thread, but I wanted to share my views on Halal meat:

The Quran forbids:

Ma Uhilla bihi lighayrallah

Ma Uhilla lighayrallah bihi

They mean:

What has been dedicated/announced/On which invocation has been made with it to other than Allah

What has been dedicated/announced/On which invocation has been made to other than Allah with it

So technically, what has been dedicated/announced to something/someone other than Allah/God is prohibited. Based on that, I conclude, that if something has not been dedicated/announced at all, then it is up to us to dedicate/announce it to Allah and eat it. However, one thing that keeps me from finalizing this understanding of mine, is the 'Bihi' or 'With it' that appears in the phrase. God could have simply said 'Ma Uhilla Lighayrallah' / 'What is dedicated/announced to other than Allah', however, in reality, He said 'What has been dedicated/announced to other than Allah with it'. So I was wondering, what does 'With it' refer to? If someone can help me find out, I'd be very happy.
Peace

The Chaste Maid

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2012, 01:30:42 AM »
I agree Emil. i just wish there was some way we could have both.
Islamic ritual doesn't just mean under Gods name, is ALSO means the meat has to be clean. It is unlawful for someone to poison ones body.

 :peace:

IAMOP

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2012, 09:24:00 AM »
If you slaughter something in the name of God then the name of God is justice/mercy/goodliness. That's saying "this meat has been certified to be of such great quality that God himself has approved of it". So yes Emil has a very profound and important point.

One must take care with this entire issue as well because if you fall on the wrong side knowingly then you would be committing shirk. So what does 'lahm' include? Skin? Let's clarify that totally otherwise you will not be able to understand where gelatin fits into this.

Likewise with what Emil says about preservatives, etc, there is a growing trend of inserting genetically modified foodstuffs into everyday things. These are EXPLICITLY haram as per 4:119 and I would recommend anyone in California to vote Yes for Proposition 37 (click for more info) which would ensure all food containing GM is explicitly labelled as so. And remember, "...The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers. - 6:119".

You must realise that there are two commands: eat what is good AND lawful; do not destroy yourselves. The latter verse may have a context regarding spending but these two commands together mean we are certainly commanded to eat good food and good food ONLY. If food is evil/unhealthy/destructive we are prohibited from eating it. So Emil is totally correct here. As submitters to God we are responsible entirely for treating correctly the bodies that He has provided us with and one must remember that the body for you is leasehold, to God the freehold ;)
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scaredmuslimah

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2012, 11:44:10 AM »
5:3 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and
the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and
that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten
to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which
has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from
except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered
on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance.


This is getting a little too deep...I agree that we should eat things that are good for us...a healthy balance of vegetables, grains, meat and the like.  We should not be eating up junk food all the time, and we should definitely take care of our bodies, as life is a gift. 

When we get into things like genetically modified foods being unlawful or lawful, I see a line being crossed.  Granted it is unhealthy for us, but that is an entirely different subject from what is stated in the Qu'ran.  It has been made clear what is forbidden in the Qu'ran.

Just my opinion.

Peace,

Amina

hawk99

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2012, 01:11:02 PM »
Peace,

By the way, fat and meat are two different things.
meats is the part of the animal that is  infused with blood (red) and has a " fleshy" texture.
Bird flesh can be white or light in color. 
Fat is the white  part of the animal
(lipid, a constituent of fat: a biological compound that is not soluble in water, e.g. a fat. The group also includes waxes, oils, sterols, triglycerides, phosphatides, and phospholipids.)
Geletin is the stuff  that "Jello" is made from, you know the stuff that falls through your fingers
if you try to pick it up!

Geletin is a semisolid protein: a transparent protein material made from boiling animal hides, bone, and cartilage that forms a firm gel when mixed with water. Use: foods, medicine, glue, photography.

Even on an experience level, I have never ordered a "fat" sandwich.
I have never went into a restaurant and asked, could I have a fat sandwich with fried onions,
peppers, mustard and ketchup please.

meat is meat, fat is fat, bone is bone.

Peace   O0


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scaredmuslimah

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 07:25:07 AM »
Peace,

By the way, fat and meat are two different things.
meats is the part of the animal that is  infused with blood (red) and has a " fleshy" texture.
Bird flesh can be white or light in color. 
Fat is the white  part of the animal
(lipid, a constituent of fat: a biological compound that is not soluble in water, e.g. a fat. The group also includes waxes, oils, sterols, triglycerides, phosphatides, and phospholipids.)
Geletin is the stuff  that "Jello" is made from, you know the stuff that falls through your fingers
if you try to pick it up!

Geletin is a semisolid protein: a transparent protein material made from boiling animal hides, bone, and cartilage that forms a firm gel when mixed with water. Use: foods, medicine, glue, photography.

Even on an experience level, I have never ordered a "fat" sandwich.
I have never went into a restaurant and asked, could I have a fat sandwich with fried onions,
peppers, mustard and ketchup please.

meat is meat, fat is fat, bone is bone.

Peace   O0

LOL!  This just reminds me of the days before I was Muslim.  My family is from the southern U.S. and pork was a staple in our house.  Pork chops, sausage, and on holidays we ate chitterlings, the intestines of the pig.  Other times we would eat pigs feet (yup, boiled pigs feet), and often enjoyed pork rinds and cracklin'.  The going joke was that we ate everything on the pig but the oink.

I just thought of that when you said that you have never ordered a fat sandwich.  :)

Peace,

Amina

redsulphur1229

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Re: Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2012, 11:00:40 AM »
I believe this topic has been discussed before, and in my view, established that 'khinzeer' does not mean 'pig/swine' at all.  If it does, then there are internal contradictions in the Quran, and the Quran should not be interpreted in a manner which renders it as internally contradictory.

5:5-6 - They ask thee what is made lawful for them. Say, ‘All good things have been made lawful for you; and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey to catch for you, training them for hunting and teaching them of what Allah has taught you. So eat of that which they catch for you, and pronounce thereon the name of Allah. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is quick in reckoning.’ This day all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of the People of the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them.

6:147 - And to those who are Jews, We forbade all animals having claws, and of the oxen and the sheep and goats did We forbid them their fats, save that which their backs bear or the intestines, or that which is mixed with a bone. That is the reward We gave them for their rebellion. And most surely We are truthful.

3:94 - All food was lawful to the children of Israel, except what Israel forbade himself before the Torah was sent down. Say, ‘Bring, then, the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.’

4:161 - So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah’s way.

16:119 - And to those also who are Jews, We forbade before this all that We have related to thee. And We wronged them not, but they used to wrong themselves.

Based on the verses above, whatever is lawful for Muslims is lawful for the People of the Book and vice versa.  5:5-6 are the sum total of what was forbidden to Jews.  As pigs do not have claws, pigs are not on the list.  While I have seen some fall into debate about what type of feet pigs have, such a debate is irrelevant since 5:5-6 also state that the sole reason for these prohibitions was rebellion.  Unless Muslims wish to be a party to such rebellion, the above prohibitions do not apply to them.

As the word 'khinz' literally refers to something as 'foul', khinzeer may just be a reference to contaminated, rotting, decaying, unclean meat generally, and not to a specific animal which, later, came to be called 'khinzeer'.  In Leviticus and Deuteronomy, the equivalent word is 'chizer', and the reason given for prohibiting it is because it chews the cud.  Apparently, along with not flying, pigs do not chew the cud.

As interpretive methodology, we should be careful when interpreting the Quran's prohibitions.

5:88-89 - O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.  And eat of that which Allah has provided for you of what is lawful and good. And fear Allah in Whom you believe.

10:60 - Say, ‘Have you considered that Allah sent down provision to you, then you made some of it unlawful and some lawful?’ Say, ‘Has Allah permitted you that or do you invent lies against Allah?

Based on these verses, out of caution and out of respect for these verses, I am loathe to prohibit more than I should.   

Moreover, I will never follow an interpretation that renders the Quran as internally consistent, and, as noted above, if 'khinzeer' means 'pig/swine', the Quran is internally inconsistent.