I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

[justamuslim]

Yes I can.

Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.

Yes.  I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.

if you reject the koran as the truth then it sure doesn't make sense to question verses in the koran as according to you, they are all crap, false, not logical, and so on.  why would you talk about any verses in the koran questioning it when you have rejected it?   unless of course you are now having doubts about your rejection.   hmmm....

so now you seem to know muhammed quite well and his intentions.  have you met him, talked to him?  hey, i am just talking your own language here.  so what you are saying is that muhammed had a self serving agenda and so per your logic and reasoning, he would have said it for gain but how about the christians, the sabians, and the other folks?   

ok faithful-jinn, so we have this koran that you say is not word of God.  that means they are the words of men or do you believe that aliens from another planet wrote them?  so who wrote the koran?  muhammed only?  bunch of arab guys and who do you suppose these arab guys were?  and what agenda do you suppose they had? 

[Faithful-Jinn]

if you reject the koran as the truth then it sure doesn't make sense to question verses in the koran as according to you, they are all crap, false, not logical, and so on.  why would you talk about any verses in the koran questioning it when you have rejected it?   unless of course you are now having doubts about your rejection.   hmmm....

Don't be childish. Obviously for the sake of argument I'm assuming the Qur'an is true. Are you suggesting only Muslims should ever talk about or comment on the Qur'an or Islam?

so now you seem to know muhammed quite well and his intentions.  have you met him, talked to him?  hey, i am just talking your own language here.  so what you are saying is that muhammed had a self serving agenda and so per your logic and reasoning, he would have said it for gain but how about the christians, the sabians, and the other folks?   

I'm not saying I know his intentions. I'm presenting a fact of history that while the Qur'an was being revealed and that when Muhammad fled to Medina, he formed an alliance with the Medina Jews. This is a fact of history that has nothing to do with theology, religion, or faith.

ok faithful-jinn, so we have this koran that you say is not word of God.  that means they are the words of men or do you believe that aliens from another planet wrote them?  so who wrote the koran?  muhammed only?  bunch of arab guys and who do you suppose these arab guys were?  and what agenda do you suppose they had?

I'm not claiming to know anything. I'm simply saying I have no valid reason to believe the Qur'an comes from God and that I have reasons to be skeptical of its alleged divine origin.

Believing the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so is not a valid reason.

[justamuslim]

Don't be childish. Obviously for the sake of argument I'm assuming the Qur'an is true. Are you suggesting only Muslims should ever talk about or comment on the Qur'an or Islam?

No you don't have to be a muslim but your position is that Quran is not true.   You cannot make the assumption that the Koran is true when your position is that it is not.   By the way, I'll just ignore your comment about my maturity level. 

I'm not saying I know his intentions. I'm presenting a fact of history that while the Qur'an was being revealed and that when Muhammad fled to Medina, he formed an alliance with the Medina Jews. This is a fact of history that has nothing to do with theology, religion, or faith.

....but wait a minute.  your position is that the koran is not from God.  but now you are saying that it is a fact of history that the Quran was revealed?   what are you saying now that Koran was revealed (from God) is a historical fact?   hmmm......

Believing the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so is not a valid reason.

you are right about that.  so you have this koran with you that you don't believe is from God.  Surely, you have thought about then who wrote it, when and why?   first of all what made you believe in the first place that it was from God? 

[donnyw]

If you were born in a world where nobody practiced religion and religious dogma didn't exist why would you ever believe in heaven, hell, or judgment? What would make you come to that conclusion without some sort of precedent for your beliefs?

I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!

I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also  believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.

I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.

So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.

God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.

[Faithful-Jinn]

No you don't have to be a muslim but your position is that Quran is not true.   You cannot make the assumption that the Koran is true when your position is that it is not.   By the way, I'll just ignore your comment about my maturity level. 

Yes I can. What you're saying is absolutely ridiculous. What you're saying is that people of different beliefs SHOULD NEVER discuss or debate theology with each because side A doesn't believe something from side B is true. I have to question your maturity level when you say something so nonsensical.

....but wait a minute.  your position is that the koran is not from God.  but now you are saying that it is a fact of history that the Quran was revealed?   what are you saying now that Koran was revealed (from God) is a historical fact?   hmmm......

More childishness.

you are right about that.  so you have this koran with you that you don't believe is from God.  Surely, you have thought about then who wrote it, when and why?   first of all what made you believe in the first place that it was from God?

I don't know. The difference between me and you is I claim not to know and you claim to know it is from God.

What made me believe in the first place is the spiritual truths I saw from the Qur'an in my own life. I thought it was from God because I thought it was all true and that I was experiencing God in my life.

[Faithful-Jinn]

I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!

I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also  believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.

I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.

So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.

God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.

Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?

I seriously doubt that.

[donnyw]

Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?

I seriously doubt that.

Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.

He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around  6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 11:30 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.

He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).

You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!

I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.

[GODsubmitter]

Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.

He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around  6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 11:30 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.

He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).

You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!

I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.

Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.

And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...

Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!

Cam we stick to the theme, please?

Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?

[savage_carrot]

Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.

And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...

Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!

Cam we stick to the theme, please?

Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?

Is that the theme? In either case, if we take 41:53...we can recognise God's signs objectively, the quran being one of them. The quran being a message to mankind (14:52) and thus universal insofar as humanity goes. Not sure what objectively thru the scripture implies.

[DaresBears]

[4:163] We have inspired (awḥaynā) you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.

[6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired (waūḥiya) to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

[16:123] Then we inspired (awḥaynā) you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.

This is the Rashad Khalifa translation, he uses the word Inspired, many other translations use inspired and some also use revealed.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/163/default.htm

I don't know Arabic that well, so i can't translate the word, but in English there is quite a big difference between Inspired and revealed, the revealed word of God would be Gods literal word, whereas the inspired word of God would be Gods word through a prophets way of speaking and perspective. So there is a big difference, I'm curious to know which is an accurate translation.

If it is inspired, then it would surely explain what seems to be scientific errors, as it would be from Muhammads perspective.
Just food for thought.