The Avoidance of those who Ridicule the faith? Help please :(

[savage_carrot]

However that cannot be what it means due to how God has stated in that very verse that we may return once they change topics. So it has nothing to do with the company we hang out with otherwise we be told not to be with them whatsoever. But honestly being in the west, I hear sometimes ny friends casuallly saying Christian mockery or God which while this verse isn't talking about those and only the verses of the Quran as I believed, they just briefly make a a mockery and move on. I don't participate on it nor respond, just wait till its over before continuing.

Thus say if it were to make a mockery of the Quran and I avoided by not talking or paying attention till done, I would indeed be damned as a Kaffir!? Even though I believe and don't cover the truth nor say or join the conversing?

That last part seems problemsome. I would understand it simply being a sin but being Kufr seems a bit much and doesn't make much sense either :/

No, it can mean company if it doesn't let up. That was the point if one doesn't take it literally (what was said in brackets). It can go deeper than "I mock your god nyah nyah" *I'm not listening lalala* "Ooh did you hear about Clarice? She's got something going on with Hannibal!" *Really? Tell me more! all ears*

Personally, I eschew casual 'friendships' and am very selective in my company. If I can't learn/share on equal grounds of respect, logic and understanding...they aren't worth my time. I wouldn't try to cultivate a deeper bond or even continuing a casual one with someone who isn't on the same wavelength; which is not to say that I can't be polite to them and/or take a stand for my beliefs. I wouldn't seek them out or bask in their company.

The verses to me incorporate both facets of such communication, casual and deeper. Being branded a 'kaffir' on the grounds you put forth is doing an injustice to all the other verses of the quran which clearly put forth the requirements of such. Always take the whole picture into account.  Like has been mentioned before on the forum, it's not black and white...it's a gradual slip and slide towards the dark side. That is what you need to be aware of and to avoid the many things that will take you there. It is a fact that many people do not cut destructiveness out of their lives or even realise the negative impact of a great many things and they all add up eventually... by which time it's too late and neither do they care much.

It's only difficult because you are seeing it as very staccato like. When you put it all together and realise that being a 'kaffir' is more than just ignoring crap people say around you...and that the verses are dealing with the attitude and mindset we should have...it makes way more sense.

This is great advice. I am in a boat like Lena's. I work with ppl who are so used to joking about their own faith, that they just find it normal to joke with any faith. Example. My mother sends me jokes about God or Jesus, that get sent to her from friends. My family is Catholic and I was raised in a moderately strict christian home. But she does not see these jokes as harmful. Sometimes I don't even think they are aware. This is what happens when you make God.. MAN. Anyway. I can understand how you feel.

I'm not sure if I mentioned feeling a certain way but I usually never click on joke emails...they're almost always lame and I feel guilty for not lmao'ing with wild abandon I agree with you though, we are just blind to certain harmful behaviour that we take as nothing untoward. Takes a lot of re-wiring, strength and openness to change...to actually see and do the needful.

[savage_carrot]

Eurika!!! I think I finally got the solution and I wish for your opinions too.

So lets revisit that verse again and gonna bold 3 words:

 "And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God's revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together." (4:140)

Rejected AND Ridiculed. That "and " is a very important word as it shows that what must happen is both rejection AND ridicule, not rejection OR ridicule.

I would like to bring you to this horrible site:

 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/4/index.htm

This is a website that tries to cover the Quran through taking its verses and making them sound bad by saying they are cruel and whatnot. A perfect example of ridicule AND kufr (even though there is no command telling us not to look at such text and only to human to human contact is such a command).

Fact is that the only reason one would be so condemned like that must be cause they are doing the covering of truth and that doesn't come without Ridicule. Ridicule is mocking or bashing and not sinply joking thus why such a word was used.  Thus they bash in order to cover the truth. This is further supported by the phrase at the end as it states the hypocrites and kaffirs will go to hell. To become a Kaffir you gotta cover the truth, and that is what this verse is getting at. It doesn't mean simple jokes, or expression of why they believe, but pure covering with ridicule right in your face.

As for being like them... that one I have a guess but not much evidence yet. I think it rather doesn't mean you ARE a Kaffir like 6:121 states you are a Mushirk, but states you are simply like them. Thus makes it seem like a big sin but not kufr for just listening as you've done no covering. Not sure why though it would be mentioned that you are like them but for now I conclude here for this till I further understand.

What does everyone think?

Doesn't seem to be an Eureka like solution since you're still not sure what it means

Like I said, there's a difference between what is being talked about in the verses and what you are mixing it up with. Being a 'kaffir' is serious business...not something you do offhand. Or at least until you're the Prince of Darkness.

[Aryan Warrior]

No, it can mean company if it doesn't let up. That was the point if one doesn't take it literally (what was said in brackets). It can go deeper than "I mock your god nyah nyah" *I'm not listening lalala* "Ooh did you hear about Clarice? She's got something going on with Hannibal!" *Really? Tell me more! all ears*

People aren't THAT much of a jerk as far as i'm aware who will go non-stop at with the Quran bashing, thus why it is expected for you to return to them once they change subjects as it states. As for the second part, that one is backbiting and that is a different case unrelated to Quran bashing which is what we are talking about.

Personally, I eschew casual 'friendships' and am very selective in my company. If I can't learn/share on equal grounds of respect, logic and understanding...they aren't worth my time. I wouldn't try to cultivate a deeper bond or even continuing a casual one with someone who isn't on the same wavelength; which is not to say that I can't be polite to them and/or take a stand for my beliefs. I wouldn't seek them out or bask in their company.

The verses to me incorporate both facets of such communication, casual and deeper. Being branded a 'kaffir' on the grounds you put forth is doing an injustice to all the other verses of the quran which clearly put forth the requirements of such. Always take the whole picture into account.  Like has been mentioned before on the forum, it's not black and white...it's a gradual slip and slide towards the dark side. That is what you need to be aware of and to avoid the many things that will take you there. It is a fact that many people do not cut destructiveness out of their lives or even realise the negative impact of a great many things and they all add up eventually... by which time it's too late and neither do they care much.

I'm a guy who has been born and raised in the west and hanging out with people such as these has in no ways shape or form affected my beliefs...in fact i've gotten more religious as time went on, so I really don't buy the idea that it slips me more into "darkness" cause them poking fun and such doesn't have such effects. Course I haven't really met many people who try to take the verses of the Quran and try to cover AND make fun of them, but might poke fun at their own religions like Christianity and such.

It's only difficult because you are seeing it as very staccato like. When you put it all together and realise that being a 'kaffir' is more than just ignoring crap people say around you...and that the verses are dealing with the attitude and mindset we should have...it makes way more sense.

A kaffir is clearly defined as one who covers the truth whether to himself or to others. The person who sits there and doesn't move isn't doing either of those unless he foolishly does start believing them and thus covers the truth for themselves.

Doesn't seem to be an Eureka like solution since you're still not sure what it means

Like I said, there's a difference between what is being talked about in the verses and what you are mixing it up with. Being a 'kaffir' is serious business...not something you do offhand. Or at least until you're the Prince of Darkness.

No its QUITE the Eureka cause I believe I got the important part down which was what it meant. The only part i'm still unsure of is the end part of "be like them" which is where I say no Eureka to until I hopefully understand that.

You are correct about Kaffir being serious business and what that person is doing is covering the truth (kufr which is translated here as rejection) as well as mocking it too.

Thus my question has come down to what does that make the person? The theory I have currently is just a big sinner for not protesting it unless they have foolishly ended up believing him which will then make them the kaffir as well.

[Bender]

Peace,

So I am rather confused about this and worried at the same time too.

So it originally started with originally with 5:57:

"O you who believe, do not take as allies those who have taken your system as fun and games from among those who have been given the Scripture before you and the rejecters. And be aware of God if you are believers." (5:57)

The part taken as allies I heard some saying it actually means friendship due to how the people of the book have already been discussed in regards to friendship in 5:51.

Then I saw 6:68.

"And if you encounter those who make fun of Our revelations, then turn away from them until they move on to a different topic; and if the devil lets you forget, then do not sit after remembering with the wicked people." (6:68)

Here it is instead saying that we should leave the company of those who make until they change subjects, which if 5:57 did indeed mean friendship, it would be contradictory as this only seems to forbid being near those who say rude stuff about our faith. Anyone wanna clear this up for me please?

Scariest of all was this one:

"And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God's revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together." (4:140)

The fact that it states that if we don't move that we are like them bothers me but what does it mean by being like them? As in I am a kaffir even though I am not covering the truth and fully believe?? How about arguing? Can't I simply just tell them to not talk about it as most people will usually just stop at that by saying "please don't talk about that"?

As well what if there is no intention behind their ridicule and making of the faith? for example I being in the film industry might have hear a guy acting out a guy who hates the faith and starts mouthing off the faith.

or how about say on Facebook where you see a post of theirs that has already said such a thing? It was done in the past and I didn't hear it, would that count?

Lastly when stating "your system" does it just directly reference the Quran or does it include God in general as I know enough Atheist who keep calling religion fake and God as being fake or those who say our faith is wrong and theirs is correct? Thus not talking about our faith directly.

Anyways i'm quite scared of this. Please help Thank and PLEASE help

Salaam Aryan Warrior 

Please take a look at these verses to understand better what awliyaa means:

9:23 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as AWLIYAA, if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.

17:23 And your Lord decreed that you shall not serve except He, and do good to your parents. When one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor shout at them, but say to them a kind saying.

So as per my understanding you can talk with them and sit with them but if they make fun of Allah and his ayaats then you can let them know they you don't appreciate it. If they continue then you have to go away from them. When they stop making fun then you can go back and talk with them.

Anyway, what kind of friends are they if they continuous make fun of the things that hurt you most and what kind of person are you to let them laugh at you all the time. It means that it's thus not a big deal at all for you that they ridicule Allah and His ayaats so in fact you are just like them.

btw you is not YOU but general 

Salaam,
Bender

[savage_carrot]

People aren't THAT much of a jerk as far as i'm aware who will go non-stop at with the Quran bashing, thus why it is expected for you to return to them once they change subjects as it states. As for the second part, that one is backbiting and that is a different case unrelated to Quran bashing which is what we are talking about.

*sigh* doesn't let up doesn't mean 24/7 literally. The second part was a change in subject...and it can be an exchange of information totally not related to backbiting.

I'm a guy who has been born and raised in the west and hanging out with people such as these has in no ways shape or form affected my beliefs...in fact i've gotten more religious as time went on, so I really don't buy the idea that it slips me more into "darkness" cause them poking fun and such doesn't have such effects. Course I haven't really met many people who try to take the verses of the Quran and try to cover AND make fun of them, but might poke fun at their own religions like Christianity and such.

Good for you? Of course, there might be others who'd feel left out or uncool if they didn't do the same as the others. In either case, the verse doesn't really talk about the same thing as casual witty funny pokery.

A kaffir is clearly defined as one who covers the truth whether to himself or to others. The person who sits there and doesn't move isn't doing either of those unless he foolishly does start believing them and thus covers the truth for themselves.

Alrighty then.

No its QUITE the Eureka cause I believe I got the important part down which was what it meant. The only part i'm still unsure of is the end part of "be like them" which is where I say no Eureka to until I hopefully understand that.

Right.

Thus my question has come down to what does that make the person? The theory I have currently is just a big sinner for not protesting it unless they have foolishly ended up believing him which will then make them the kaffir as well.

If you've already differentiated between what is being talked about in the verses i.e. rejection and ridicule from the rest of what it was opined to be...then one part of your concerns has been sincerely laid to rest.

The other part i.e. what this hypothetical person would be who doesn't protest and/or get away from someone rejecting and ridiculing the quran for example would be to analyse the motivations for doing so. Like you said, it could be because they believe it or they could be hypocrites in that they play both sides. The verse deliberately mentions both. A 'believer' wouldn't continue to be a part of it (note: doesn't mean 24/7 literally)...this isn't hard and fast one time only literally or else that's it, now you're a hypocrite or a kaffir.

[Aryan Warrior]

Salaam Aryan Warrior 

Please take a look at these verses to understand better what awliyaa means:

9:23 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as AWLIYAA, if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.

17:23 And your Lord decreed that you shall not serve except He, and do good to your parents. When one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor shout at them, but say to them a kind saying.

So as per my understanding you can talk with them and sit with them but if they make fun of Allah and his ayaats then you can let them know they you don't appreciate it. If they continue then you have to go away from them. When they stop making fun then you can go back and talk with them.

Peace good Bender,

My understanding of Wali is that it means Allies so I take 9:23 to mean not to take your brother or father as allies in they choose to stay rejectors instead of believers.

Anyways verse 4:140 only requires you to leave IF they say bad about the VERSES of God as it made no mention of God himself there and yes they are differentiated from each other as 9:65 makes it clear.

"And if you ask them they say: "We were only jesting and playing." Say: "Is it in God and His verses and His messenger you were mocking?" (9:65)

Well now that that is past in regards to the ayats, its not even just making fun of it, but rather covering up the truth too as its states "rejected AND ridiculed" if we are talking about 4:140. Thus its not simply joking as jokes can be quite meaningless but going on to ridicule which involves bashing as well.

Anyway, what kind of friends are they if they continuous make fun of the things that hurt you most and what kind of person are you to let them laugh at you all the time. It means that it's thus not a big deal at all for you that they ridicule Allah and His ayaats so in fact you are just like them.

btw you is not YOU but general 

Salaam,
Bender

You can't say that sitting there with them like its no big deal makes someone like them as I always say that to myself that "God will deal with them accordingly". Anyways again it only states ayats once again and therefore the Quran, which honestly i've almost never encountered that myself before. I see some of my friends sometimes joke about their own religion like Christianity (I guess this would mean the bible) or joke about God (which isn't amongst those that are mentioned and again it is usually jokes and not ridicule anyways cause ridicule is quite frowned upon nowadays.

[Aryan Warrior]

*sigh* doesn't let up doesn't mean 24/7 literally. The second part was a change in subject...and it can be an exchange of information totally not related to backbiting.

Doesn't matter as the command is that once they change subjects that we can return to them. So if they do it again, we leave again. If you don't like it, then you leave them permanently. That part is up to you.

Good for you? Of course, there might be others who'd feel left out or uncool if they didn't do the same as the others. In either case, the verse doesn't really talk about the same thing as casual witty funny pokery.

lol thanks XD but those are weak people if they wanna join in and there already is a verse mentioned that one shouldn't speak badly of God, the verses and the Prophet I believe so it would cover that for one if that person foolishly joined in and if they believed had entered the state of kufr.  But yes, I guess we both then agree that its likely not referring to casual witty funny pokery XD If they make a joke, its not the same as what is mentioned here as they are neither doing covering nor mockery, but empty jokes (which one still shouldn't join in of course )

If you've already differentiated between what is being talked about in the verses i.e. rejection and ridicule from the rest of what it was opined to be...then one part of your concerns has been sincerely laid to rest.

The other part i.e. what this hypothetical person would be who doesn't protest and/or get away from someone rejecting and ridiculing the quran for example would be to analyse the motivations for doing so. Like you said, it could be because they believe it or they could be hypocrites in that they play both sides. The verse deliberately mentions both. A 'believer' wouldn't continue to be a part of it (note: doesn't mean 24/7 literally)...this isn't hard and fast one time only literally or else that's it, now you're a hypocrite or a kaffir.

True it does feel far more rested but as always I never am 120% sure until something kicks in me

However not leaving but believing wouldn't make you a kaffir nor a hypocrite. The believer might just be lazy or not feeling like starting something with the person by getting up, thus simply remains quiet during that period and doesn't really pay attention. Again lets review the meaning of kaffir, which means one who covers the truth and a hypocrite is someone who is a kaffir but pretends to be a believer. The believer isn't guilty of either of those and by the description of the Quran, the kaffir is the clear enemy of the believer but that very believer who is unaffected would still fight for the believers against the kaffirs.  Thus as i've said earlier too that it states "LIKE them" not actually being them as 6:121 stated with being a mushirk. The part that states Kaffir and Mushirk I believe refers to the people you might be talking to who will be going to hell which the fact that they are doing kufr in this verse shows that they are such people first and for most and that mentioned them at the end may be a conclusion as to where these very people who you talk to will end up.

course I am still trying to figure out the part about "like them" as i'm not 100% and if God wills I can understand it

[savage_carrot]

Doesn't matter as the command is that once they change subjects that we can return to them. So if they do it again, we leave again. If you don't like it, then you leave them permanently. That part is up to you.

Yess.

lol thanks XD but those are weak people if they wanna join in and there already is a verse mentioned that one shouldn't speak badly of God, the verses and the Prophet I believe so it would cover that for one if that person foolishly joined in and if they believed had entered the state of kufr.  But yes, I guess we both then agree that its likely not referring to casual witty funny pokery XD If they make a joke, its not the same as what is mentioned here as they are neither doing covering nor mockery, but empty jokes (which one still shouldn't join in of course )

I have quite honestly never met someone as earnest as you in finding ways to avoid stuff looking at the letter of the law so to say 

However not leaving but believing wouldn't make you a kaffir nor a hypocrite. The believer might just be lazy or not feeling like starting something with the person by getting up, thus simply remains quiet during that period and doesn't really pay attention. Again lets review the meaning of kaffir, which means one who covers the truth and a hypocrite is someone who is a kaffir but pretends to be a believer. The believer isn't guilty of either of those and by the description of the Quran, the kaffir is the clear enemy of the believer but that very believer who is unaffected would still fight for the believers against the kaffirs.  Thus as i've said earlier too that it states "LIKE them" not actually being them as 6:121 stated with being a mushirk. The part that states Kaffir and Mushirk I believe refers to the people you might be talking to who will be going to hell which the fact that they are doing kufr in this verse shows that they are such people first and for most and that mentioned them at the end may be a conclusion as to where these very people who you talk to will end up.

One has some leeway but honestly, laziness is not an excuse. I recall this one dude's theory that laziness is the root of all evil. In either case, you need to understand that if people around you are rejecting and ridiculing something you believe in wholeheartedly and no valid excuse is keeping you from rushing to the door or telling them to shut it...then there is an issue. This is what I mean by real motivations, not occasional laziness or whatever. No believer in anything wholeheartedly will sit around without protest or run off fuming for example on the majority of occasions regardless of whether it is something religious or not. Uncles have destroyed dinner tables laden with food for less than glorious arguments about politics rather than divine scripture. This is what you need to analyse. 

If you are like them but not them, exactly what is the difference here? You won't end up like them if you don't do what the verse says for you to do?

[Aryan Warrior]

I have quite honestly never met someone as earnest as you in finding ways to avoid stuff looking at the letter of the law so to say 

May I know what you mean?

One has some leeway but honestly, laziness is not an excuse. I recall this one dude's theory that laziness is the root of all evil. In either case, you need to understand that if people around you are rejecting and ridiculing something you believe in wholeheartedly and no valid excuse is keeping you from rushing to the door or telling them to shut it...then there is an issue. This is what I mean by real motivations, not occasional laziness or whatever. No believer in anything wholeheartedly will sit around without protest or run off fuming for example on the majority of occasions regardless of whether it is something religious or not. Uncles have destroyed dinner tables laden with food for less than glorious arguments about politics rather than divine scripture. This is what you need to analyse. 

I don't doubt that laziness is an excuse and don't deny that one SHOULDN'T get up. What i'm getting at is that why it really can't be kufr here and rather just a sin. Laziness can lead to like the sin of not praying cause they are lazy for example. Saying that the person isn't a believer just cause he did or didn't do a certain thing is like saying a believer isn't one who sins and believers do sin here and there and this is another command..out of laziness if not done would best fit the notion of sin i'd think as honestly they haven't done anything kufr related. They haven't covered the truth.

If you are like them but not them, exactly what is the difference here? You won't end up like them if you don't do what the verse says for you to do?

The difference is that the believer hasn't covered the truth even though he has at least sinned. He might hear it, listen to it, and move on with without the slightest influence.

Course what I find interesting in this is that even though I argue here, I don't know a situation where I would fall into this really. In real life, people I know are mostly Christians and Atheists who are pretty relaxed and not waging war against our faith. Christians might joke about the bible or God and the Athists might simply talk about why God isn't real and religion is fake, but neither never try to condemn nor cover the verses of the Quran itself as this command states

anyways lets keep going

[savage_carrot]

May I know what you mean?

It means that you are very intent on the wording in order to avoid the bad stuff.

I don't doubt that laziness is an excuse and don't deny that one SHOULDN'T get up. What i'm getting at is that why it really can't be kufr here and rather just a sin. Laziness can lead to like the sin of not praying cause they are lazy for example. Saying that the person isn't a believer just cause he did or didn't do a certain thing is like saying a believer isn't one who sins and believers do sin here and there and this is another command..out of laziness if not done would best fit the notion of sin i'd think as honestly they haven't done anything kufr related. They haven't covered the truth.

I'm just going to summarise the basic stuff: Using our sense, we analyse why one would do so without a valid reason and why such people would be called like those who are rejecting and ridiculing. It's not that hard if you think about bad/wrong stuff going on around you and you don't make a statement with/without words. You become part of the problem like I said. And those rejecting and ridiculing are also part of the problem. Thus alike.

The difference is that the believer hasn't covered the truth even though he has at least sinned. He might hear it, listen to it, and move on with without the slightest influence.

Once again, it's telling you to make a statement or you become part of the problem. Doesn't mean you are a munafiq or a kaffir.

Course what I find interesting in this is that even though I argue here, I don't know a situation where I would fall into this really. In real life, people I know are mostly Christians and Atheists who are pretty relaxed and not waging war against our faith. Christians might joke about the bible or God and the Athists might simply talk about why God isn't real and religion is fake, but neither never try to condemn nor cover the verses of the Quran itself as this command states

Best to cover all bases when and if.