Author Topic: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?  (Read 810 times)

JesusSonOfGod

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Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« on: June 28, 2012, 02:37:07 PM »
Peace friends,

We all know that in the past God was God of the Israelites religiously speaking, He gave them the Law and they failed to adhere with completeness, so the Law could not save them as they failed to keep it and neighter taught it to the the rest of the world as God obviously desired,

Then God promised them Messiah, the Christ. We all know that He was to be born in the line of Isaac in the house of King David. Christ would redeem then and through Him the gentiles would be blessed,

We know that Christ does not come with the Law but an anointing to redeem the mankind to God. Christ Jesus was born and those who were close to Him witnessed everything about Him,

Yet the Jews thought Christ must be born like the past leaders and kings to deliver them from other nations, so they rejected Jesus and by doing so fulfilled the scriptures and more is yet to come

As written, anyone who profess to follow the Law must follow the entire Law, if the Jews are holding to Judaism then they should be doing the full Law even when it comes to sacrifices of bulls, doves, goats.... but they are not doing it and no one is dying by God's grace yet their eyes are closed, because of Jesus they are not cursed by the Law

So Jesus is born in the line of David and we believe the witness of those who saw and heard Him,

If you can have faith in these you already have life and know that

Jesus is Son of God

If you understand this and accept Jesus in your life, believing by heart and confessing by mouth God is able to answer all your questions which the answers are hard sometimes if you asked a human being, for indeed we as Christians would be the most sinners if we preach that God raised Christ if He did not, truly it would meant we say God did what He did not do but we know that the witness of Jesus disciples is true and worthy of adherance by all, Amen

Bender

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 03:03:10 PM »
Salaam,

The Quran teaches us this:

9:30 And AlYahudu said: "Ezra is the son of God," and AlNassara said: "The Messiah is the son of God." Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!
9:31 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up.
9:32 They want to extinguish the light of God with their mouths, but God refuses such and lets His light continue, even if the rejecters hate it.

and this:

5:17 Rejecters indeed are those who have said: "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." Say: "Who has any power against God if He had wanted to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother, and all who are on the earth!" And to God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is in-between; He creates what He pleases. God is capable of all things.

Salaam,
Bender
Alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-alameen

Student of Allah

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »
Peace friends,

We all know that in the past God was God of the Israelites religiously speaking, He gave them the Law and they failed to adhere with completeness, so the Law could not save them as they failed to keep it and neighter taught it to the the rest of the world as God obviously desired,

Then God promised them Messiah, the Christ. We all know that He was to be born in the line of Isaac in the house of King David. Christ would redeem then and through Him the gentiles would be blessed,

We know that Christ does not come with the Law but an anointing to redeem the mankind to God. Christ Jesus was born and those who were close to Him witnessed everything about Him,

Yet the Jews thought Christ must be born like the past leaders and kings to deliver them from other nations, so they rejected Jesus and by doing so fulfilled the scriptures and more is yet to come

As written, anyone who profess to follow the Law must follow the entire Law, if the Jews are holding to Judaism then they should be doing the full Law even when it comes to sacrifices of bulls, doves, goats.... but they are not doing it and no one is dying by God's grace yet their eyes are closed, because of Jesus they are not cursed by the Law

So Jesus is born in the line of David and we believe the witness of those who saw and heard Him,

If you can have faith in these you already have life and know that

Jesus is Son of God

If you understand this and accept Jesus in your life, believing by heart and confessing by mouth God is able to answer all your questions which the answers are hard sometimes if you asked a human being, for indeed we as Christians would be the most sinners if we preach that God raised Christ if He did not, truly it would meant we say God did what He did not do but we know that the witness of Jesus disciples is true and worthy of adherance by all, Amen

Shalom Aleikhem,

I have 2 questions for you:

1. Why did you clone this thread ? This thread was already running and had only run for 3 pages. Why did you decide to restart from scratch ? As far as I know, this is considered a form of spamming or disruption.

2. May be I am wrong (after all I am human too), but it looks as though you are actively avoiding submitting evidence for that what you attribute to Jesus and that what you attribute he spoke about the Lord. Why ?

 At this point, I find it morally obliging to let you know that there is no "argument" here. Because for that to happen, both parties must submit propositions and refute/accept them. You are not helping anyone out. You are simply asserting over and over that Jesus is the Son of God. Do not get me wrong, I do not doubt your sincerity. I am only asking from you the bare minimum. You have provided as much evidence of Jesus being the son of God as anyone can give evidence of Michael Jackson being the son of God. Ofcourse, the Michael worshiper would have to say that totally based on her/his subjective and personal feelings. Same goes for you.

I only asked for you to present the truth, the way, and the life, all you gave me was your subjective perception.

I don't know if there is a word for it when a follower of Christ has to ignore Christ to believe in Christ.

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

Jafar

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 12:34:56 PM »
JesusSonOfGod apparently you're a professional salesman (or saleswoman)..??
You seems to not really trying to seek out the truth (as any other salesmen or women)..
It seems your motivation is to sell your product..

And if your product has a flaw / defect or bad review, you seems to try on 'downplaying' it by moving to another topic.. (which is not related at all with the topic being discussed)..

But anyway.. to makes you happy... if you want me to convert well then I will.. tell me what do you want me to do.. I convert myself for you.. (and also tell me what do I get out of it, perhaps some % of your commission?? ;)

Salam / Peace
The Arabs (al-arabu) are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent upon His messenger
9:97

And yes it's written as Al-Arabu and not Al-Badawi or Badawiyun..
*For those who had a hard time accepting this fact..

JesusSonOfGod

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 11:41:38 AM »
Salam,

It was not my intention to clone, I put in a reply and there was no topic so I typed the topic but it came in a different page, sorry please don't make it an issue.

I read the Qur'an as quoted by Bender, what I always struggle to understand is that, this person who was writting these things already knew what the other religions was teaching, we don't really consider true Christianity as religion but a Christ like lifestyle even in reference to God. What He seems to be doing is criticize the religions or faith.

The things that he is saying were addressed by the apostles in their warnings to the church, as people who teach philosophies of man FULL of the wisdom of the world not the wisdom of God denying that Jesus is Son of God (not my words), then Jesus said, .."Father I thank you that you have revealed these things to the poor.."

I heard that sometimes the prophet would have no answers for the people that questioned him concerning Christianity and he would get some inspirations and come back with answers. If this is correct, it means he really didnt have a ministry like the other men of God had, John the Baptist already had his ministry and Jesus answered every question that was asked without consulting (the words were already in him, authenticated)
It was Jesus Him self that taught that we MUST have faith in Him. When I read the words recorded as Jesus words, they are words on One with authority not as one send to deliver a message and He says He got them from the Father,

Lol, I am not a salesman Jafar, I am an engineer. Without hesitation I would prefer that people investigate but obviously if you are Muslim i think make a prayer to God asking Him to reveal Jesus in truth to you and continue with your normal life and belief God is able to teach us from what we already are customed to, I also came from a Jesus believing church where the Holy Spirit was put behind doors, someone said we are not here (free-minds) to convert people, I believe God has an apointment with all of us. If you were meant to hear Jesus one day it will come. It was He who said, "...My sheep hears My Voice..." these He did not say as a messager or a prophet, He said it as Christ the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world as John the Baptist said and He will lead us to God

Some say God must just forgive not to obtain a way out through a sacrifice, but we all know that without the shedding of blood no life can be redeemed and if God being God just said, "I forgive everyone", that would include satan and at that moment everyone dead would resurrect and we would be immortal because the Word of God does not go and come back to Him void but it always accomplishes what it is sent to do. So if before Christ Jesus Son of God died for us, God said, if you sin you will die, it had to be so without any hope of resurrection, but now resurrection is only valid as a reality because Jesus died for us and was raised for us, that we may resurrect also being in Him. So the teaching that Jesus son of Mary did not die, i unfortunately believe it comes from him who comes  to lie, destroy and kill to influence people not to believe but the apostles warned us,

good logic

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 12:25:37 PM »
Peace JesusSonOfGod.

How are you?

Jesus true message, check it out at: http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/what-is-the-true-religion/

Nice to hear from you.
Peace.
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38:65″ Say:” I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.”

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Bigmo

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 10:42:13 AM »
Peace friends,

We all know that in the past God was God of the Israelites religiously speaking, He gave them the Law and they failed to adhere with completeness, so the Law could not save them as they failed to keep it and neighter taught it to the the rest of the world as God obviously desired,

Then God promised them Messiah, the Christ. We all know that He was to be born in the line of Isaac in the house of King David. Christ would redeem then and through Him the gentiles would be blessed,

We know that Christ does not come with the Law but an anointing to redeem the mankind to God. Christ Jesus was born and those who were close to Him witnessed everything about Him,

Yet the Jews thought Christ must be born like the past leaders and kings to deliver them from other nations, so they rejected Jesus and by doing so fulfilled the scriptures and more is yet to come

As written, anyone who profess to follow the Law must follow the entire Law, if the Jews are holding to Judaism then they should be doing the full Law even when it comes to sacrifices of bulls, doves, goats.... but they are not doing it and no one is dying by God's grace yet their eyes are closed, because of Jesus they are not cursed by the Law

So Jesus is born in the line of David and we believe the witness of those who saw and heard Him,

If you can have faith in these you already have life and know that

Jesus is Son of God

If you understand this and accept Jesus in your life, believing by heart and confessing by mouth God is able to answer all your questions which the answers are hard sometimes if you asked a human being, for indeed we as Christians would be the most sinners if we preach that God raised Christ if He did not, truly it would meant we say God did what He did not do but we know that the witness of Jesus disciples is true and worthy of adherance by all, Amen

Jesus is reported to have said “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” and “I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (John 14:9-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add: “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20) Again, while Jesus does proclaim “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30), he also prays for his followers, “that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” (John 17:21) Whatever the nature of the “oneness” Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians – in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.

Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as “equal with God” – John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 – the Greek word translated “equal” is isos, which means “on the same level” or “of the same rank,” never “identical.” The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what “everybody knows” about Jesus’ claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.

An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the “Logos” with God (John 1:1) and the “Logos made flesh” with Jesus (John 1:14). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like “the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was” – an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term “Logos” is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing’s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is “with” God and is what God is, is not God but God’s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God’s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God’s spirit (Genesis 2:7) and in God’s image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27).

Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God’s nature:


“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:14-17)

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” (1 John 3:2)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus’ message, being the “Son of God” is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;

http://praxeology.net/unblog02-04.htm
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

boricuaboi85

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 07:15:50 PM »
Is there another way that we can understand "Son of God" and "I and my Father are one"?

A Baha'i friend explained it to me this way...

The sun cannot come down to earth (it would incinerate the earth before it got here), but the rays of the sun do come down and warm us.  She said, the prophets were/are like mirrors which, being perfectly cleaned and shined, most perfectly reflect the light of God, the rays into the world of men.  They most perfectly reveal what can be known of God's attributes and character to humanity.  This, she says, is what is meant when Jesus said "I and my Father are one" and "He who has seen me has seen the Father."

Also, "Son of God" in the Christian writings does not mean literally that Jesus is God the Son, but rather that, unique among men, Jesus did not have a human father, but was rather conceived of a virgin, Mary, by the will and power of God.  That is the meaning of the term.  It does not refer, necessarily, to divinity or divisions of persons in the Godhead, as many would purport.  Many times, people were called "friend of God", "Lover of God", etc.  This does not refer to ontological reality, but is rather poesy.  Poetic human speech about peoples' relationship to the Divine...To the Holy Mystery.
To God belong the East and the West. Wherever you turn the glory of God is everywhere: All-pervading is He and all-knowing. (Al-Baqara 2:115)

GODsubmitter

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Re: Can Jesus be the Son of God as Christians claim?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 08:08:40 PM »
Check this out, it is worth reading:

JESUS: Myths & Message
http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/jesus/index.html
LET GO AND LET GOD!

Thank you and I love you.

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