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Quranists and testing for clandestine agendas?
Wakas:
I forgot to point out the fatal flaw of some/many "Quranists", which coincidentally is also the fatal flaw of "Traditionalists" in my view, and that is their method of studying Quran is inconsistent.
What I mean by this is that Traditionalists generally do not apply a systematic/robust/falsifiable method consistently when attempting to extract the most accurate answer from Quran (i.e. they pick and choose what suits), and likewise, this is the same for some/many "Quranists".
Ironically, the latter criticise the former then often do the same themselves. And the former criticise the latter claiming they translate according to their whims and are doing this themselves. Double-standard, hypocrisy etc.
Unfortunately this is quite common.
Zulf:
It is better if we focus less on others and more on ourselves. It is better if we strive to improve ourselves and aim to find Source (Allah, God...) with ourselves, and free ourselves from the slavery of the mind (which should just be a tool, not the master). We should not judge others, because it will never ever be fair. Let everyone have their agendas. All we can do is to encourage manners and honest and logic ways of thinking. We will never be able to say anything about people's agendas. Why bother anyway?
Peace
Wakas:
peace Zulf,
--- Quote from: Zulf on August 23, 2012, 04:24:46 PM ---We should not judge others, because it will never ever be fair. Let everyone have their agendas. All we can do is to encourage manners and honest and logic ways of thinking. We will never be able to say anything about people's agendas. Why bother anyway?
--- End quote ---
Are you implying Quran does not say anything on these issues?
If you admit it does say things on these issues, then it has been put in Quran for a reason, and that reason is most likely to help us in some way. Hence taking an interest in such issues, discussion etc.
And I will tell you the reason on "why bother" and that is to better arm ourselves so we are less likely to be misled, make better decisions etc. A related example in real life: members of parliament/government often say one thing but their voting record implies another; and it is by taking an interest in such traits that we can better identify such people, better inform ourselves, make better decisions etc........ or would you also claim for this "why bother?".
Zulf:
--- Quote from: Wakas on August 24, 2012, 04:01:54 AM ---peace Zulf,
Are you implying Quran does not say anything on these issues?
If you admit it does say things on these issues, then it has been put in Quran for a reason, and that reason is most likely to help us in some way. Hence taking an interest in such issues, discussion etc.
And I will tell you the reason on "why bother" and that is to better arm ourselves so we are less likely to be misled, make better decisions etc. A related example in real life: members of parliament/government often say one thing but their voting record implies another; and it is by taking an interest in such traits that we can better identify such people, better inform ourselves, make better decisions etc........ or would you also claim for this "why bother?".
--- End quote ---
1. Nope, not implying that.
2. I agree to the rest of your response.
As long as we develop ourselves in thinking skills (opposite of remaining a sheep) it is very good, and naturally we need to learn from the past and from examples in our surrounding.
Basically I was hinting at the impossibility to know someone else's mind... heck, people even don't know their own minds... which means we should not judge others (simply since we don't know it all).
So, the "why bother" was meant as "let's not get into futile efforts" of labeling people. My angle was a bit different, but maybe it is slightly more clear now. I also mean that, at the same time we should not bother about people's inner agenda or reasons, since we will not know them enough... we should definitely encourage good and consistent behavior and intentions, and learn to expose bad ans misaligned actions and propaganda... Let's focus on the output of people, not the people themselves. Perhaps the difference is hard to see, or it can even be argued that there is no difference. The output will speak for itself, especially in a context and viewed in the light of past things put out.
My apprehension is that we should not classify people as having hidden agendas. The point is to not put a label on someone. Because then it often happens that the label determines how we receive what that person produces next time, no matter how sinister or truthful it is may be. We should instead evaluate all that is put out by someone.. in a context. Yes, we should be vigilant, coz there is much sheep-in-wolf-dress sort of "information" put out there, with slanderous aims...
I'm afraid my previous post was not very clear.... anyhow... maybe this one was more clear....
No worries, I got your point, and I agree. Did you get mine?
Peace Wakas and all
IAMOP:
--- Quote from: Wakas on August 24, 2012, 04:01:54 AM ---peace Zulf,
Are you implying Quran does not say anything on these issues?
If you admit it does say things on these issues, then it has been put in Quran for a reason, and that reason is most likely to help us in some way. Hence taking an interest in such issues, discussion etc.
And I will tell you the reason on "why bother" and that is to better arm ourselves so we are less likely to be misled, make better decisions etc. A related example in real life: members of parliament/government often say one thing but their voting record implies another; and it is by taking an interest in such traits that we can better identify such people, better inform ourselves, make better decisions etc........ or would you also claim for this "why bother?".
--- End quote ---
You wake up, eat breakfast, get dressed, head out to work. It's a chilly day but what's more striking is that it's incredibly foggy, foggy beyond comprehension. You can barely see the outline of your own hand in front of you. You see a bunch of people driving their cars around. How irresponsible these guys are, you think to yourself. Driving around in such intense fog, how would they even know where the hell they're going? They could cause an accident. I should call the police, sheesh. You get to work and look in the mirror. Oh. Forgot to wipe my glasses.
;)
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