Let's discuss Hoarding

[progressive1993]

In simple economic terms, hoarding of goods/services leads to a shortage in the market for that good/service, meaning not enough is being supplied to meet the demand. This leads to long lines in front of sellers, riots, fights, hunger, etc. Just imagine suppliers hoarding food because the prices are rising and they want to wait until they have a really high price for the high demand. This is a reality in many countries, especially in Africa where people hunger, stand in long lines, do not get enough food and resources, etc. Furthermore, this leads to increased black market activities. Money hoarding is bad for the economy because it needs consumption and investment for GDP to rise. Of course the hoarding of goods/services is much worse than money/demand-affecting hoarding.

[Aryan Warrior]

I'm talking at 'macro economic level'.. while what you do is right on 'micro economic level'..
Let's taken an extreme case.. what if everyone "Save their money"?
And they all keeping their 'money' (In whatever form) within their home thus not 'circulated'?
Result: Economy Crisis..

Okay lets back up for a moment. While you state the mechanics of how society runs here and therefore it is a problem once hoarding is at a macro economic level, thing is that Quranically going how is it looked at in a micro economic level? Give a portion to charity or other stated people and then afterwards keep in a bank for either further building to do things with it later or as backup for if something goes wrong for you at some point? and what about those who simply hoard but its during a time when the economy isn't a problem?

[Aryan Warrior]

In simple economic terms, hoarding of goods/services leads to a shortage in the market for that good/service, meaning not enough is being supplied to meet the demand. This leads to long lines in front of sellers, riots, fights, hunger, etc. Just imagine suppliers hoarding food because the prices are rising and they want to wait until they have a really high price for the high demand. This is a reality in many countries, especially in Africa where people hunger, stand in long lines, do not get enough food and resources, etc. Furthermore, this leads to increased black market activities. Money hoarding is bad for the economy because it needs consumption and investment for GDP to rise. Of course the hoarding of goods/services is much worse than money/demand-affecting hoarding.

Course it does hurt economy, but the question here was that if simply giving the required portion and then hoarding it up for later consumption or as backup will it be sinful? Many business need such backup plans to stay alive incase their business is starting to collapse let alone any civilian.

[savage_carrot]

Course it does hurt economy, but the question here was that if simply giving the required portion and then hoarding it up for later consumption or as backup will it be sinful? Many business need such backup plans to stay alive incase their business is starting to collapse let alone any civilian.

Checks and balances should exist and the risks must be real with appropriate contingencies in place. Same as for individuals; risk assessments and so on. The danger is in needless or destructive hoarding as that is useless and at worst intentionally harmful.

[Aryan Warrior]

Checks and balances should exist and the risks must be real with appropriate contingencies in place. Same as for individuals; risk assessments and so on. The danger is in needless or destructive hoarding as that is useless and at worst intentionally harmful.

Well the idea now is what are we defining hoarding as?

Is hoarding more the idea of growing your money more and more with intention of using it at some point for getting new things like a better house or car, saving for when or if you are old, and as a fallback incase you run into bad times.  This was what one of the online dictionary sites defined the english word known as "hoarding" as gathering for future use.

Or is it rather simply gathering wealth for the sake of gathering with no intention of ever knowing what to do with it and therefore just wanna have it? A poster in this topic stated it the arabic word for hoarding rather means more this where the money is put away and never used again "Kaf-Nun-Zay = to collect and store up, treasure, bury in the ground a treasure."

[savage_carrot]

Well the idea now is what are we defining hoarding as?

Is hoarding more the idea of growing your money more and more with intention of using it at some point for getting new things like a better house or car, saving for when or if you are old, and as a fallback incase you run into bad times.  This was what one of the online dictionary sites defined the english word known as "hoarding" as gathering for future use.

Or is it rather simply gathering wealth for the sake of gathering with no intention of ever knowing what to do with it and therefore just wanna have it? A poster in this topic stated it the arabic word for hoarding rather means more this where the money is put away and never used again "Kaf-Nun-Zay = to collect and store up, treasure, bury in the ground a treasure."

Sorry hadn't read the entire thread before posting. It's being used in 9:34 as negative and that's apparently the only place I can see it while doing a concordance. The rest of the verses people opine are about hoarding use terms like accumulation/gathering for example. This can be bad or good depending on how it's used. It'd say the latter above in the quote is one of the ways that it can be destructive/useless/wasteful. There is no injunction where buying a better car/house or saving for our futures so on and so forth is forbidden or frowned upon. As in all things balance i.e. enjoy wealth wisely and responsibly not being stingy or wasteful (extremes).

As far as the english goes, I'd choose saving over hoarding (if I was using it in a positive way) I suppose as I don't come across someone saying 'they were saving rice to sell it to others higher later' often. Probably personal choice since hoarding can encapsulate a more destructive form of saving...and saving usually connotes valid personal use I guess? The emphasis is on use (how/what (purpose) is it being used for, will it actually get any proper use etc).

In either case, my opinion is as above: balance and that wealth is something to be used constructively and with proper thought. It can be wasted and destructive in the hands of some and cause lots of good for many/some in the hands of others. If you're worried about there being a difference between general use and spending it in the way of God, just divvy it up and use it for a little of each purpose, the ratios changing with changing circumstances, adjusting it to the various factors so on and so forth and for most intents and purposes this would cover a lot of bases generally and keep the balanced aspect.

[Aryan Warrior]

Sorry hadn't read the entire thread before posting. It's being used in 9:34 as negative and that's apparently the only place I can see it while doing a concordance. The rest of the verses people opine are about hoarding use terms like accumulation/gathering for example. This can be bad or good depending on how it's used. It'd say the latter above in the quote is one of the ways that it can be destructive/useless/wasteful. There is no injunction where buying a better car/house or saving for our futures so on and so forth is forbidden or frowned upon. As in all things balance i.e. enjoy wealth wisely and responsibly not being stingy or wasteful (extremes).

As far as the english goes, I'd choose saving over hoarding (if I was using it in a positive way) I suppose as I don't come across someone saying 'they were saving rice to sell it to others higher later' often. Probably personal choice since hoarding can encapsulate a more destructive form of saving...and saving usually connotes valid personal use I guess? The emphasis is on use (how/what (purpose) is it being used for, will it actually get any proper use etc).

In either case, my opinion is as above: balance and that wealth is something to be used constructively and with proper thought. It can be wasted and destructive in the hands of some and cause lots of good for many/some in the hands of others. If you're worried about there being a difference between general use and spending it in the way of God, just divvy it up and use it for a little of each purpose, the ratios changing with changing circumstances, adjusting it to the various factors so on and so forth and for most intents and purposes this would cover a lot of bases generally and keep the balanced aspect.

Well said.

 So in the end the end what is sinful is keeping it locked up for the sake of locking it up as "treasure" therefore no one gets any use out of it, not even the owner. Course I am now curious if a "coin collection" counts as this?

And so the English one would work better as "Saving" then eh, thus why I guess they say people have "savings" accounts

As for the rest of what you said, yeah we also can't go around throwing money everywhere to the point where it cuts into our needs. Course spending itself does help society get better especially in places like Canada where the government charged 13% on everything you buy, thus you pay a little charity with everything you buy too, but one has to in the end not let it cut into his needs, which is why we also have that command where we should not overpay in charity.

So I guess in the end as long as I pay my charity, have plans for my money that i'm storing up in the bank or whatever and not simply throwing it there and have plans on never touching it then i'm okay

Course I have noticed that in stories like Qarun where hoarding was more that he had so much that everyone around him was suffering. I wonder if the Quran is referring to those types of extremes as result? Afterall the Quran hasn't forbid us of having treasure as Solomon had his Kingdom, and how God said we are to enjoy them in 3:14.  I am thus coming up witht the theory that it means to excessively hoard to the point where society is being damaged around you and is sinful if doesn't give from it to charity or spend it in any way in the name of God as stated in 9:34.

Course I don't care for treasure as I got a use my money to buy things such as food and video games, save for later use, save as backup, or invest for the future and never to stay as idle with the purpose of never wanting to use it.

Course the new question that pops up is having a collection? People collect coins, stamps movies and even a video game collection such as myself. I myself buy a lot of video games and do play them but after I beat them, I keep them as collection. Some might say "why not sell them or give then away" but honestly they are like a form of treasure to me now and would not ever wanna give up this collection. Which got me wondering if that is like hoarding? I already did buy them so they belong to me, so its not like i'm withholding unused stuff but simply merchandise I bought with money.

[savage_carrot]

Well said.

 So in the end the end what is sinful is keeping it locked up for the sake of locking it up as "treasure" therefore no one gets any use out of it, not even the owner. Course I am now curious if a "coin collection" counts as this?

Depends on whether the collector is planning on taking it with him into the grave I suppose?

And so the English one would work better as "Saving" then eh, thus why I guess they say people have "savings" accounts

If you're using it in a positive way, yes.

As for the rest of what you said, yeah we also can't go around throwing money everywhere to the point where it cuts into our needs. Course spending itself does help society get better especially in places like Canada where the government charged 13% on everything you buy, thus you pay a little charity with everything you buy too, but one has to in the end not let it cut into his needs, which is why we also have that command where we should not overpay in charity.

Definitely.

So I guess in the end as long as I pay my charity, have plans for my money that i'm storing up in the bank or whatever and not simply throwing it there and have plans on never touching it then i'm okay

Think you're good there.

Course I have noticed that in stories like Qarun where hoarding was more that he had so much that everyone around him was suffering. I wonder if the Quran is referring to those types of extremes as result? Afterall the Quran hasn't forbid us of having treasure as Solomon had his Kingdom, and how God said we are to enjoy them in 3:14.  I am thus coming up witht the theory that it means to excessively hoard to the point where society is being damaged around you and is sinful if doesn't give from it to charity or spend it in any way in the name of God as stated in 9:34.

Agreed, that's pretty much how I see it as well.

Course I don't care for treasure as I got a use my money to buy things such as food and video games, save for later use, save as backup, or invest for the future and never to stay as idle with the purpose of never wanting to use it.
Course the new question that pops up is having a collection? People collect coins, stamps movies and even a video game collection such as myself. I myself buy a lot of video games and do play them but after I beat them, I keep them as collection. Some might say "why not sell them or give then away" but honestly they are like a form of treasure to me now and would not ever wanna give up this collection. Which got me wondering if that is like hoarding? I already did buy them so they belong to me, so its not like i'm withholding unused stuff but simply merchandise I bought with money.

Just will it away if you'd really like to collect and keep in your lifetime. The added benefit of that is with time it might have a higher value (monetary or otherwise). For example, the games would go to a museum of digital art preservation or somesuch Or the kids/whoever gets it just might sell it and use it, um usefully who knows.

[Aryan Warrior]

Just will it away if you'd really like to collect and keep in your lifetime. The added benefit of that is with time it might have a higher value (monetary or otherwise). For example, the games would go to a museum of digital art preservation or somesuch Or the kids/whoever gets it just might sell it and use it, um usefully who knows.

Well say what if I didn't will it? Basically i am asking if collecting mechandise is a forn of hoarding as the Quran states? Or rather is already bought stuff known as hoarding if I am not planning to use it and just keeping it as a collectable? Also even if one can do a will then wouldn't mean one could put even hoarded money on will?

Course I guess in the end we gotta look at 9:34 where it calls hoarding+not giving anything to charity a sin? Therefore if I already gave money to charity that I am good to keep these prized possessions of mine worryfree?

[savage_carrot]

Two different things:

1) You buy something (keeping everything else more or less in balance) and keep it with you forever = then you die.

2) You refuse to use your wealth (nothing else is more or less in balance) and keep it locked away forever= then you die.

As you can clearly see, one of these is the issue the quran talks about. And it's not 1. The responsible thing to do with 1 would be to will it away/see it used properly within your lifetime. If you don't, well then...not sure if it's a 'sin' but it is irresponsible. And we are told to be responsible. If you deliberately bury/burn/hide it so that no one can ever use it after you die, that's intentionally just being a jerk Whatever we have is a loan from God and material possessions temporary. If you see things this way, makes more sense. As for hoarded money, dude that's what you will away anyways? In one form or another? It has value in some form or another? No one wills air do they?

Once again, just try to keep it balanced because that's the issue we need to worry about. Strangely enough, not just regarding hoarding.