Let's discuss Hoarding

[Aryan Warrior]

Hoarding is condemned in the Quran:

 9:34 "O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume people's money in falsehood, and they turn away from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution."

Well what I want to discuss today is what kind of hoarding is forbidden?

The above said hoarding gold and silver AND not spending it in the name of God is bad. This is what I am getting from it as in you can have wealth saved up but still make sure you spend too and thus the idea of simply accumulating wealth with no intent on spending in the name if God is bad.

The idea i've realized is further supported by how Prophets like Solomon had his kingdom as wealth and fancy horses or how Joseph saved up food for later use (I think it was him at least) and we ecen got verse stating how treasure is here for us to enjoy:

3:14 "It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return."

So I decided to look up the definition of hoarding:

" hoard (hôrd, h rd)
 n. A hidden fund or supply stored for future use; a cache

. v. hoard·ed, hoard·ing, hoards

 v.intr. To gather or accumulate a hoard.
v.tr. 1. To accumulate a hoard of.
2. To keep hidden or private.

If we were to go by those terms of absolutely no hoarding is allowed then we can't save money for rainy day, for future plans such as a better home or better TV or for your childs fund. Heck even a bank account would not be allowed as its where we keep our money and use it to later buy more food or other things. This would also mean people like Solomon and Jospeh have sinned for keeping treasure and gathering food for the future.

This is why I believe 9:34 above shows us that with the word AND that its hoarding+ not spending on charity or in the name of God is what is not allowed. This is what Qarun did. He had a ton of money but refused to give a dime of it to the people.

Thus I believe we can have nice things as Solomon did with his horses and kingdom while using his money also in the name of God. As well saving money or stuff for later as Jospeh did with food but still also spent his money in the name of God.

I myself give half of my excess after my paycheck is done to my mother for her to use however she wishes as that is also a form of charity stated in the Quran while the other half of my excess goes to be saved for future use on something nice like video games, buying new film gear (planning to start that as i'm oushing further into the. Film industry) and food and such.

My father also likes to pay me a bit of money each week too which I normally don't include as money to be spent on charity as its simply a gift for buying things as I wish

Of course I am not saying i'm 100% correct and would like your opinions on it too.

[mirjamnur]

Salam Aryan warrior

Surah 104 - Amount of Verses: 9
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
 
104:1   
ويل لكل همزة لمزة
WOE unto every slanderer, fault-finder!
104:2   
الذى جمع مالا وعدده
[Woe unto him who amasses wealth and counts it a safeguard,
104:3   
يحسب أن ماله أخلده
thinking that his wealth will make him live forever!
104:4   
كلا لينبذن فى الحطمة
Nay, but [in the life to come such as] he shall indeed be abandoned to crushing torment!
104:5   
وما أدرىك ما الحطمة
And what could make thee conceive what that crushing torment will be?
104:6   
نار الله الموقدة
A fire kindled by God,
104:7   
التى تطلع على الأفءدة
which will rise over the [guilty] hearts:
104:8   
إنها عليهم مؤصدة
verily, it will close in upon them
104:9   
فى عمد ممددة
in endless columns!

I also believe that hoarding  without giving something is the described sin. God gives us Risq and tests people with poverty and wealth. It is a test of how we deal with too much money or too little money. peace 

[Jafar]

9:34 is a great verse because it highlight the common behavior which constantly shown by religious people up until now.

Let's dig into it one by one:
1. The priests consume money (donation) by spreading terror falsehood, hatred and lies..
And they just don't like it when somebody challenges their lies 'version of truth', because the lies within will be easily exposed. Thus it will ruined their image / charisma. Without 'image' / 'charisma' it will be hard for them to spread more hatred and lies make money...

From economy perspective:
They consume something from the society without giving back real value to the society, although they're not among those who are weak or impaired.

It's only permissible when the person is in state of 'helplessness' (elderly, weak, impaired) spending money to those folks is considered as 'charity'.. and it's a good deed as it help people in needs (serving them).

2. Hoarding Gold and Silver and DO NOT SPEND
As I mentioned in many thread before.. money by itself in whatever form (Gold, Silver, Seashells, Magnetic Field, Hole in a Disc, Pigs, Feathers, Paper) does not have any real value.  Money shall be valuable if and only if it was being exchanged, and as part of that exchange there's a real value being created / transferred.

Many of you have heard about 'economy crisis'..
And what's the essence / root cause of 'economy crisis'?

It's simple.. it's when people do not spend their money... (in whatever form)
They stack it up thinking that 'money' has a real value, perhaps thinking that money will save them in 'bad future'...

When money is not being exchanged, business will go down and people start to lose jobs...
The whole society shall stop 'creating value'..
In simpler term the whole society stop 'serving each others'...

And what's the opposite? It's known as 'economy boom'..
It's when people spending money (in the valuable manner) the whole society 'value production' shall goes up and people 'serve each others'...

Then.. how about robbery? stealing? why it is bad?
Because robbery / stealing is earning money without giving real value back to the society..
A society full of robber / thieves shall not 'serve each others' they will continuously rob / steal from each others.. until there's no more left to rob or steal.. The whole 'value creation cycle' of the society shall become near zero..... and they will start killing each others due to the lack of needed resources...(which posses the real value)

Thus back to answer your question..
"Spending money for something nice like video games, buying new film gear, food" is ok... it improves the economy and people shall produce more food, video games, film gear etc..

But don't forget.. you need to earn the money that you spend by producing a real value back to the society..
It's the 'value that you give to the society' that matter and not the money..
When people are busy 'serving each other' (read: doing business/exchanging real value through mediation of money) they will stop thinking about war or inflicting pain to others..

Salam / Peace

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all 

There is a difference between stockpiling and hoarding.

Stockpiling is done in times of plenty, such as storing grain in times of plenty for future difficulty.  This is sensible and without harm to others.  Stockpiling is ethical.

Hoarding is done in times of difficulty or when resources are limited, and exacerbates the situation for others.  Hoarding of this sort is taking more than one is entitled/allowed to or able to use.  Hoarding may or may not be legal, but it is not ethical.

The function of money is to circulate.

25:67 And those who when they give they are not excessive nor stingy, but they are in a measure between that.

2:215 They ask you what they should spend, say: "What you spend out of goodness should go to your family and the relatives and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer. And any good you do, GOD is fully aware of it."

2:219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that GOD clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

ALLAH knows best.

 

~Abdul-Hadi

[Aryan Warrior]

I also believe that hoarding  without giving something is the described sin. God gives us Risq and tests people with poverty and wealth. It is a test of how we deal with too much money or too little money. peace 

Well I don't deny that its not a sin. But regardless so you come under the conclusion as I then that keeping money without ever spending a dime on the people God has told you to spend on is a sin.

But the thing is that there are people mentioned in the Quran which we give to as charity but aren't poor and thus includes relatives and your wife too so I think of it more as spending in the name of God.

[herbman]

Salam,

my 2 comments:

1/ in arabic theres no full stop between first sentence

9:34 "O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume people's money in falsehood, and they turn away from the path of God.

and this one:

 And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution."

What I mean is: Priest and Monks could be the "Those" of the second sentence.

2/ arabic word KANAZA in PRL for example:

Kaf-Nun-Zay = to collect and store up, treasure, bury in the ground a treasure.

kanaza vb. (1)
perf. act. 9:35
impf. act. 9:34, 9:35
n. vb. (kanz, pl. kunuz) - 11:12, 18:82, 18:82, 25:8, 26:58, 28:76

LL, V7, p: 161

Peace

[Aryan Warrior]

9:34 is a great verse because it highlight the common behavior which constantly shown by religious people up until now.

Let's dig into it one by one:
1. The priests consume money (donation) by spreading terror falsehood, hatred and lies..
And they just don't like it when somebody challenges their lies 'version of truth', because the lies within will be easily exposed. Thus it will ruined their image / charisma. Without 'image' / 'charisma' it will be hard for them to spread more hatred and lies make money...

From economy perspective:
They consume something from the society without giving back real value to the society, although they're not among those who are weak or impaired.

It's only permissible when the person is in state of 'helplessness' (elderly, weak, impaired) spending money to those folks is considered as 'charity'.. and it's a good deed as it help people in needs (serving them).

2. Hoarding Gold and Silver and DO NOT SPEND
As I mentioned in many thread before.. money by itself in whatever form (Gold, Silver, Seashells, Magnetic Field, Hole in a Disc, Pigs, Feathers, Paper) does not have any real value.  Money shall be valuable if and only if it was being exchanged, and as part of that exchange there's a real value being created / transferred.

Many of you have heard about 'economy crisis'..
And what's the essence / root cause of 'economy crisis'?

It's simple.. it's when people do not spend their money... (in whatever form)
They stack it up thinking that 'money' has a real value, perhaps thinking that money will save them in 'bad future'...

When money is not being exchanged, business will go down and people start to lose jobs...
The whole society shall stop 'creating value'..
In simpler term the whole society stop 'serving each others'...

And what's the opposite? It's known as 'economy boom'..
It's when people spending money (in the valuable manner) the whole society 'value production' shall goes up and people 'serve each others'...

Then.. how about robbery? stealing? why it is bad?
Because robbery / stealing is earning money without giving real value back to the society..
A society full of robber / thieves shall not 'serve each others' they will continuously rob / steal from each others.. until there's no more left to rob or steal.. The whole 'value creation cycle' of the society shall become near zero..... and they will start killing each others due to the lack of needed resources...(which posses the real value)

Thus back to answer your question..
"Spending money for something nice like video games, buying new film gear, food" is ok... it improves the economy and people shall produce more food, video games, film gear etc..

But don't forget.. you need to earn the money that you spend by producing a real value back to the society..
It's the 'value that you give to the society' that matter and not the money..
When people are busy 'serving each other' (read: doing business/exchanging real value through mediation of money) they will stop thinking about war or inflicting pain to others..

Salam / Peace

Wow beautiful post there dude

It makes sense why the economic crisis happened together with the occupy movement. Though there are many rich people who do spend their money on stuff like cars and houses but also give to charity. Bill Gates is an amazing example of one. He is rich and has much money to last generations after but
also still spends billions on charity. Thus it goes to show that those like the bankers who kept all of that money and refused to spend a dime of it on society or charity is what killed the economy.

But as for keeping money for a bad time. Well its needed I think as we might really hit such periods. My. Mother has kept money on the side for emerency and we have had to dip into it many times when bad times were in. But I guess you meant it as in keep the money and not spend a dime from it for even charity and such. But the question begs that the money being hoarded already had a portion of it spent on charity before depositing the rest, therefore it is not about not spending from the hoard but rather spending from what you earn before keeping the rest for rainy days and future expenses.

As for thieves. What about thieves like Robin Hood who steal from the rich and give to the poor XD

Anyways tell me what you think

[Aryan Warrior]

Greetings and Peace, all 

There is a difference between stockpiling and hoarding.

Stockpiling is done in times of plenty, such as storing grain in times of plenty for future difficulty.  This is sensible and without harm to others.  Stockpiling is ethical.

Hoarding is done in times of difficulty or when resources are limited, and exacerbates the situation for others.  Hoarding of this sort is taking more than one is entitled/allowed to or able to use.  Hoarding may or may not be legal, but it is not ethical.

The function of money is to circulate.

25:67 And those who when they give they are not excessive nor stingy, but they are in a measure between that.

2:215 They ask you what they should spend, say: "What you spend out of goodness should go to your family and the relatives and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer. And any good you do, GOD is fully aware of it."

2:219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that GOD clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

ALLAH knows best.

 

~Abdul-Hadi

So hoarding rather refers to when doing it during a time of when society needs thatt money. Well being in Canada the economic crisis didn't hurt thus nation so I guess that wouldn't apply here?

[Aryan Warrior]

Salam,

my 2 comments:

1/ in arabic theres no full stop between first sentence

9:34 "O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume people's money in falsehood, and they turn away from the path of God.

and this one:

 And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution."

What I mean is: Priest and Monks could be the "Those" of the second sentence.

2/ arabic word KANAZA in PRL for example:

Kaf-Nun-Zay = to collect and store up, treasure, bury in the ground a treasure.

kanaza vb. (1)
perf. act. 9:35
impf. act. 9:34, 9:35
n. vb. (kanz, pl. kunuz) - 11:12, 18:82, 18:82, 25:8, 26:58, 28:76
!
LL, V7, p: 161

Peace

Hmm I never thought of it this way actually. It makes sense as its the same verse and priesta have been known for crooked behaviours like that on how they refuse to spend the money that is given to their temples and want to keep for thenselves. My only issue is that is this general to all people or just people like those who receive money to spend speciically in the way of God.

Also interesting, the arabic meaning of hoarding seems to differ from the english in that its simply storing up things without specifically mentioning future use. Thus one can take that it refers to those who just want to build up their fortune for the sake of building it like those billionaire who compete on who is richer :/

[Jafar]

Wow beautiful post there dude
It makes sense why the economic crisis happened together with the occupy movement. Though there are many rich people who do spend their money on stuff like cars and houses but also give to charity. Bill Gates is an amazing example of one. He is rich and has much money to last generations after but
also still spends billions on charity. Thus it goes to show that those like the bankers who kept all of that money and refused to spend a dime of it on society or charity is what killed the economy.

Bankers and Bill Gates personal wealth constitutes <1% of the total economy..

The system should be if the (private) bankers doesn't circulate the money around... the central bank should take over and do it.... by giving it to the government thus to the people... which will kick started the whole economy.. (Usually called "Incentives" or "Boosting The Spending Power") The people will start buying and the seller will start selling...

Remember the #1 commandment: Money by itself has no real value

But as for keeping money for a bad time. Well its needed I think as we might really hit such periods. My. Mother has kept money on the side for emerency and we have had to dip into it many times when bad times were in. But I guess you meant it as in keep the money and not spend a dime from it for even charity and such. But the question begs that the money being hoarded already had a portion of it spent on charity before depositing the rest, therefore it is not about not spending from the hoard but rather spending from what you earn before keeping the rest for rainy days and future expenses.

I'm talking at 'macro economic level'.. while what you do is right on 'micro economic level'..
Let's taken an extreme case.. what if everyone "Save their money"?
And they all keeping their 'money' (In whatever form) within their home thus not 'circulated'?
Result: Economy Crisis..

As for thieves. What about thieves like Robin Hood who steal from the rich and give to the poor XD

A robber is a robber is a robber including Robin Hood.. he and his gangs doesn't contribute any real value to the society.. other than 'redistributing money' by taking it by force from certain group of people..  The argument that "Sheriff Of Nottingham" is also doing the same thing is not a justification at all.. If the Sheriff is doing the same thing then the society is faced with two big mafias The Sheriff and Robin Hood...

And the "rich" / "poor" is just a labeling... in other cases "Rich" is changed to "Foreigner" and "Poor" is changed to "Our homeland brothers".. Taking money from "Foreigner" and giving it to "Our homeland brothers" seems to be a 'good deed' for some people..

Test Case: What if everyone within certain society is doing Robin Hood + Sheriff ?
Result: Sodom, Gomorrah or Today's Somalia..

Salam / Peace