Author Topic: Evolution or Intelligent design ?  (Read 3372 times)

Student of Allah

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1157
Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« on: May 31, 2012, 07:38:00 PM »
Shalom Aleikhem,

This thread is intended to discuss the theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design. Yes you can join in. It would be nice if you don't presume and assume based on hearsay prior to advocating for either theories.


Peace
---------- Student of Allah

Student of Allah

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1157
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2012, 07:47:55 PM »
Shalom Aleikhem,

I have always had the idea that God existed since I was a small child but never had what could be called "evidence" until I really started reading Intelligent Design arguments and that set a light off in my head/heart, so to speak. Intelligent Design is a completely rational, logical, scientific based argument for the existence of our Creator that is not dependent upon any kind of Scripture.


It would help if you can point out those "completely rational, logical, scientific based arguments" so that we can begin a discussion on specific topics.

For me, the structure of universe, the structure of our bodies and all living things, DNA, the structure of cells, microbiology, biology and chemistry all point towards a Creator. I always viewed the argument that there is an irreducible complexity to these things that random, purposeless, chance cannot account for. Hence the only rational, logical conclusion is God exists and He is the Creator. (this is a very abbreviated argument here)

Please put forth the explanation for irreducible complexity. The ones I already know are weak and bad. It would be an interesting topic to discuss.

Some very good, short, easily readable books on this is Darwins Black Box by Michael Behe and Signs of Itelligence by Behe and James Kushiner. They are scientists who put forth a non theological, scientific argument for the existence of a Creator and they make it easy for the average reader to understand the science behind it. For me, they were, among some other books too, absolutely profound in cementing my belief in the existence of God.


I have not read them. The honest truth would be that neither am I willing to. Can you share the arguments from those books which proved "Intelligent Design" theory for you ? It would be a much more efficient process to discuss on case by case basis instead of entire books.


Peace
-------------- Student of Allah

newform

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 09:44:52 PM »
I think it's both. God is creator of everything but life has evolved since the beginning of creation and God has been supreme the whole time and will always be.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

Mr.Q

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 228
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 11:04:16 AM »
It's been awhile since I discussed it all but I'd be happy too.

First off, it's not a matter of Evolution OR Intelligent Design. They are not entirely exclusive of each other. The problem with discussing evolution is we have to define what it is. There is two types of evolutionary theory. One is micro-evolution, which is the variation within a given species. There is ample and abundant examples of that easily observable in Nature. For example there are many different races of human beings. That is micro-evolution. We are all different but we are all still human. There are 100's of species of dogs and cats, thousands of different species of butterflies, etc. but they are all still dogs, cats and butterflies.

Macro-evolution, on the other hand is the changing from one species to another and there is scant evidence for that outside of theoretical postulations. Dogs don't transform into humans and cats dont transform into butterflies. The fossil record does not support the theory of macro-evolution.

Many times when talking about evolution, the two forms get sold and marketed as one item which is misleading. Micro-evolution is used invariably to sell the macro but they are should be looked at separately. That's where Intelligent Design comes into play. It's simply a way of looking at things and examining observable evidence. It's basically a way of asking a simple question, "Does what I am looking at display elements of random, purposeless chance? Or is there evidence of forethought and purpose denoting Intelligence?"

I have to go and will explain more later.

newform

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 03:27:36 PM »
Great answer Mr. Q. I appreciate the insight.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

Student of Allah

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1157
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 09:55:01 PM »
Shalom Aleikhem,

Good that you joined the conversation. I hope we learn things. :)

It's been awhile since I discussed it all but I'd be happy too.

First off, it's not a matter of Evolution OR Intelligent Design. They are not entirely exclusive of each other. The problem with discussing evolution is we have to define what it is. There is two types of evolutionary theory. One is micro-evolution, which is the variation within a given species. There is ample and abundant examples of that easily observable in Nature. For example there are many different races of human beings. That is micro-evolution. We are all different but we are all still human. There are 100's of species of dogs and cats, thousands of different species of butterflies, etc. but they are all still dogs, cats and butterflies.


Micro and Macro evolution are different based on the time-scale and time-frame. An analogy for micro would be the amount of net profit Bill Gates made from the copy of Windows that I purchased. Ofcourse, the "macro" would be the overall net profit Bill Gates made from his Microsoft Corporation.

It is absurd to state that one believes in micro-economy but refuses to admit macro-economy. Because the "macro" is like a sum of the "micro"s. Let us put it this way, what you are saying is that you believe that if I deposit a dollar a day in your family bank account, it gives your family 365 dollars extra in a year, and for a 50 year time frame it gives you $18250 extra. Your family will still probably remain in similar social group. At the same time, you are refusing that given enough time, for example, 10000 years it would make your family a Millionaire ($3.65m) or a Billionaire in in 3 million years and shift your family to entirely different social group/s!!

The human example speaks for itself. Originating out of Africa, now we have so many different races. Do you know about "Ring Species" (click) ? 


This will help you enormously to understand this subject. As the species keeps on changing little at a time, giving rise to different types of the same species (in different environment), there comes a point when the two animals at the two ends of the ring can not interbreed !! That is the magnitude of difference that we already see in nature. Given more time.... I don't think I need to finish the sentence.


Dogs don't transform into humans and cats dont transform into butterflies.

You have to be kidding me. Why would that happen ? Who said that happened in the first place ? You cant have anything like a croco-duck if evolution is working the way it is supposed to. That would be totally random, and in most cases impossible.


The fossil record does not support the theory of macro-evolution.


First of all, if at all...we are lucky to have the fossils. We need to depend on the animals dying in a way that they can become fossils. Then there is the challenge of excavation. The world is a pretty big place, and it is not reasonable to excavate all of it.

Having said that, the fossils record complement evolution. You never find the wrong animal in the wrong place. Just as the theory predicts !! As stated before, we are lucky to have the fossils. Since evolution works in a gradual slow manner, to confirm what you are looking for through fossils, you would need every other generation of a species to die and get lucky and fossilize and we to get lucky and find it in a place we are allowed to excavate. Is that a reasonable demand ?

But I am still wondering what you meant by "they do not support macro-evolution" !!


That's where Intelligent Design comes into play. It's simply a way of looking at things and examining observable evidence. It's basically a way of asking a simple question, "Does what I am looking at display elements of random, purposeless chance? Or is there evidence of forethought and purpose denoting Intelligence?"


I am sorry, I did not get this part at all. Where did "intelligent design" come in from ? I hope you will share some examples to let me understand what you are talking about.


Peace
--------------- Student of Allah

leebowman

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 07:16:24 PM »
From a Darren E. Irwin article:

Ernst Mayr called ring species “the perfect demonstration of speciation” because they show a range of intermediate forms between two species. They allow us to use variation in space to infer how changes occurred over time. This approach is especially powerful when we can reconstruct the biogeographical history of a ring species, as has been done in two cases.

Speciation being geographic and/or sexual isolation between two directly related phyla, essentially the same phyla, but acquiring variations.  The variations produce the 'ring', and at a point where sexual isolation occurs, or the ability to breed only hybrids, then speciation has occurred.

Due to times required, it is difficult to observe these occurrences, although with various insects (drosophila et al), it has been observed due to the short gestation times.  Here's an example I came across of arthropod experiments along those lines:
http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/loreau/pdfs/fournierloreauecography.pdf

With ground-beetles, examples are given of variations, things like 'habit preferences' such as eating habits [phytophagus, v. carnivorous, or plant eating v. eating each other], and population location preferences.  Noted was that the adding of hedges within their populations produced group separations due to habitat preferences.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/irwin.html

Another example is beak sizes with Darwin's finches and various fish populations, such as the Ensatina Salamanders, which over time, differed in color and size, and ceased interbreeding.  But was it totally genetic, or just preferential?  One of the frustrations in defining species, whether fish or beetles, is determining when-in-fact speciation has actually occurred.

Speciation occurs [Ernst Mayr's definition of species], but is difficult to determine.  Alleged speciations have occurred, but have returned to a single cohabital species over time.  And, there are alleged to be 250 to 350 thousand beetle species worldwide.  But guess what?  They're all nearly identical in bodily components, varying only in color, proportions, and some metabolic features.  Yeah, they're still beetles ...

So the question I raise is this:
Can speciation alone (microevolution) result in novel phylogenetic change (macroevolution)?  :confused:

Or as Student of Allah stated:
"macro" is like a sum of the "micro"s.

I say yes in select cases where ecological effects may in fact work harmoniously with favorable (and fortuitous) morphological changes which luckily occurred as needed in a changing environment, and were selected upon.  These abilities, inherent within phyla, enhance survival and minimize extinctions.  But I view this very adaptive ability itself as a 'designed-in' function.

But there have been instances of what I term as 'radical speciation', where the complexity of requisite alterations needed far exceeded the ability to progress via random mutations.  Not only would the series of changes need occur with no 'look-ahead' abilitiy to forsee a future requirement, but the extended series of changes (the intermediates) would

•   have no immediate selective advantage,
•   generally be deleterious to extant function(s),
•   and fail due to needed co-dependencies not yet in place.

To summarize:  Adaptive mutations occur, that I feel [predict] are the result of  'designed'in' variances, available within the genome by design, to aid in survival.  Theses in no way are the means to 'radical speciation' alterations like bird flight, whale evolution including echolocation, and giraffe necks to name only three.

Evolution occurs naturally, but guided alterations [genetic engineering] have occurred along the way.

Jafar

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1868
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2012, 04:13:26 AM »
Evolution occurs naturally, but guided alterations [genetic engineering] have occurred along the way.
1. And the factors which influence those alterations are natural as well.
2. And the alterations are being performed by the being itself as those being which cannot alter / change properly shall go down the path of extinction.. this is called 'natural selection'..

The whole procession is called evolution..

I don't see any contradictory between evolution with 'intelligent design'..

The whole idea of 'intelligent design' is put forward due to the enforcement of the "Anthropomorphism / Personal God" view. Where God is being viewed as "Human" and he's  'outside of this universe'.  Which is common in the western world (middle east included) until today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphic

When one see God as a 'force' / 'all within God' point of view there shall be no need of 'intelligent design' as the whole element within the universe performed in harmony / balance through evolutionary changes. Creation (and destruction) never stop. Or to again switch the mode to "Personal God point of view" we can say "God never stop working".
This view is common in the eastern world...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

Salam / Peace
The Arabs (al-arabu) are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent upon His messenger
9:97

And yes it's written as Al-Arabu and not Al-Badawi or Badawiyun..
*For those who had a hard time accepting this fact..

lordfox

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Gender: Male
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 01:26:26 PM »
deleted
''from the purlieus of some inhabited city, we bring you, a fervent mindist''

DaresBears

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: Evolution or Intelligent design ?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2012, 05:34:19 PM »
And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience.
http://muslimonlymuslim.blogspot.co.uk/
My blog about Islamic topics.