Author Topic: Philosophy: Sex before marriage  (Read 1704 times)

justamuslim

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 08:18:13 PM »
The only mitigating factor I can think of about marriage is that God tells us "the believing men should marry the believing women". If both partners are following God's righteous path as God Alone, Muslims then the above situations (STD's, abuse, jealousy, instability etc) will not occur. So the philosophical and moral reasons for no sex before marriage cannot be dealt with outside of the context of believers marrying believers.


Lena, I agree.  As I said 'good marriage' is best environment to raise children.  If each person had only one sexual partner by marriage for life or utmost 2-3 with a person like the same (due to divorce or being widowed) then prevalence of STD would be very low.  And sex in a LOVING committed marriage is not the same as have sex outside of marriage.  So in other words basically God's system is the perfect system and true happiness is in following God's laws. 

We are not talking about bad marriages.  We are talking about consequences of having sex outside of marriages and why it is not a good thing and should be avoided.   

Aryan Warrior

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 08:33:42 PM »
I think the first thing we got to look at is what does Zina means as that is the word used throughout the whole Quran time after time.

Regularly it means both Fornification and Adultry thus covering both ends. I've seen people challenge that word before but never seen a fully convincing argument on it. Maybe we can finally crack down and be 100% sure on things :)

I personally believe that it does mean both those things because 23:3-23:4 state you gotta guard your private parts except around your wife or MMA.

So I lets begin talking on if its truly allowed or not without any idea of morality in on whether "its not nice" or "its wrong" or "its dirty" or "it gives STDs" forget all those and lets straight up just talk on if its allowed or not, which my personal view is that Zina means both those as that is what it means since classical arabic times as well as 23:3-4, but lets see what you say :)

progressive1993

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 08:57:19 PM »
So far, I think that in the Quran it is written that sex outside of a committed relationship is forbidden.
"Sexual Laws of the Quran" article coming soon!

Aryan Warrior

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2012, 08:58:24 PM »
So far, I think that in the Quran it is written that sex outside of a committed relationship is forbidden.

All it said was Zina, unless there is a verse that says as such.

progressive1993

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 09:02:40 PM »
All it said was Zina, unless there is a verse that says as such.

I mean when you put all the verses together and make a conclusion from it - that's what I understood.
"Sexual Laws of the Quran" article coming soon!

Aryan Warrior

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2012, 09:14:40 PM »
I mean when you put all the verses together and make a conclusion from it - that's what I understood.

That is what I think too, but I wanna further investigate as this topic seems to wanna try to do. So lets wait for TC :)

lordfox

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2012, 05:00:08 AM »
Quote from: Aryan Warrior link=topic=9603830.msg297874#msg297874 te=1337312022
I think the first thing we got to look at is what does Zina means as that is the word used throughout the whole Quran time after time.

Regularly it means both Fornification and Adultry thus covering both ends. I've seen people challenge that word before but never seen a fully convincing argument on it. Maybe we can finally crack down and be 100% sure on things :)

I personally believe that it does mean both those things because 23:3-23:4 state you gotta guard your private parts except around your wife or MMA.

So I lets begin talking on if its truly allowed or not without any idea of morality in on whether "its not nice" or "its wrong" or "its dirty" or "it gives STDs" forget all those and lets straight up just talk on if its allowed or not, which my personal view is that Zina means both those as that is what it means since classical arabic times as well as 23:3-4, but lets see what you say :)

This was not my aim for this topic. I will quote my earlier post and add on to it.

The key is to understand that morality is not intellectual and logical. If I ask for an example of evil, one will give me an answer such as ''murder'' or ''thievery'', but this just a verbalization of our emotion, because these are not logical explanations, we cannot intellectually differentiate evil from good. The sphere of the intellectual and the emotional are different, as much as one cannot explain why X was sad on the day Y mathematically, one cannot say that this act was evil or good based on a bullet-proof intellectual fact.

Thus, the peasant and the aristocrat will both systematically agree upon what is good and what is not, regardless of what they have or have not read. Upon this understanding, one will systematically arrive to the conclusion that the only law to be adopted is the one that is universal and appertains to each and every human being that is born on this earth, regardless of his class.

This is why I insisted on giving exclusively moral arguments, as Allah's sunnah does not change, the "rules" within the Qu'ran were to be followed from the first morally developed human beings. A time where there were no STDs, etc. Secondly, I prefer not to try to understand what is what based on the translations of the Quran, as they are an absolute mess. It is said in the Qu'ran that we have numerous examples in the universe, the animals and ourselves as well; and interesting fact, some animals are noted to be promiscuous...

I will give you an example: We have always thought that homosexuality was seen as an abomination quranically. I have never been able to find any reason for it morally. Upon research, I understood that a great number of species are homosexual or bisexual. Upon some more research, I understood that we have archaeological proofs (carvings etc.) proving there were previous mobs, before the one of Lot, that practiced homosexuality (and thus the "crime" of the people of Lot was not homosexuality because it is said in the Qu'ran, that they practiced something which has never, ever, been done).

I hope you get the idea...
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youssef4342

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2012, 09:45:25 AM »
Where does pre marital masturbation fit in all of this? Is it a gross sin, just a sin, controlled lust?


Well, as a rule of thumb
Using ones private parts would only be due to their spouses or concubine-like fugures. (23:5-6, 70:30)
then we see"But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors  (23:7)


Masturbation, premarital intimate relationships would all be beyond the point of spouse-ship and concubine-ship, and thus would be a trans-gression/crossing the lines.
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Aryan Warrior

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2012, 09:54:58 AM »

Well, as a rule of thumb
Using ones private parts would only be due to their spouses or concubine-like fugures. (23:5-6, 70:30)
then we see"But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors  (23:7)


Masturbation, premarital intimate relationships would all be beyond the point of spouse-ship and concubine-ship, and thus would be a trans-gression/crossing the lines.

depends on how you view that verse. Many of us don't take 23:7 to include masturbation and that entire section just refers to other people and thus going beyond unguarding it to people other than "wife" and "MMA" and not referring to oneself as one doesn't guard something of their own from themselves. Masturbation is not sex and those verse were directly talking about sex and chastity considering you "guard" against other people and you sure as hell don't lose your chastity/unguard or have sex by masturbating.

progressive1993

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Re: Philosophy: Sex before marriage
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2012, 11:17:54 AM »
Masturbation, premarital intimate relationships would all be beyond the point of spouse-ship and concubine-ship, and thus would be a trans-gression/crossing the lines.

This is absurd. Sex is allowed with spouses and MMA - ones with whom one has a committed relationship. Masturbation is not sex, and there is no evidence in the Quran that it is forbidden. You misinterpret the phrase and say that it means "using one's private parts", which is a loose, and ambiguous interpretation. "Guarding the private parts" clearly refers to sex.
"Sexual Laws of the Quran" article coming soon!