General Issues / Questions > General Issues / Questions
Your Thoughts on Secular Governments?
lordfox:
--- Quote from: loxbox13 on May 15, 2012, 07:21:08 PM ---If you read the quran carefully, you will realise that the quran is the bases of a governement of the ELITE, not all the people decide for the whole except the Elite, in the quran they're called utu alilm or Ulema , of course, religious people kidnapped this word , so a scholar means for them a religious man with the memory of an elephant to keep hadiths in their head , thinking is not allowed ofcourse, or think but do not oppose
--- End quote ---
To you thus, the "elite" can only be followers of the Qu'ran and nothing else? We must understand that morality is universal, and not exclusive to a certain class of people. To distinguish evil from good is something that is innate and emotional, and is not attained by reading books.
The only way to coexist freely and with peace, is to understand that morality is universal, adopt natural law and live in "communes" with "administrations" like pointed Jafar. The need of leaders is an argument that is self-defeating.
Al-Azhar:
--- Quote from: Jafar on May 14, 2012, 05:06:32 PM ---
Kingship???? And pass his uncontrolled / unlegislated absolute power to his own progeny??
You must read the "House Of Saud" or "House Of Hashem" or "Bashar Assad" version of the Quran.. :rotfl: :rotfl:
The outright rejection over the concept of "Kingship" thus automatically granting power to the king's own son (or whomever else he wishes) without any consultation and agreement from the people is what makes Mr. Hussein Bin Ali got beheaded around 1400 years ago..
--- End quote ---
2:247 And their prophet said to them: “God has sent Saul to you as a king.” They said: “How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?” He said: “God has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature.” God grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
27:16 And Solomon inherited from David, and he said: “O people, we have been taught how to understand the speech of the creatures that fly, and we have been given from everything. This is indeed an evident grace.”
48:10 Those who pledge allegiance to you, are in-fact pledging allegiance to God; the hand of God is above their hands. Those of them who violate such a pledge, are violating it only for themselves. And whoever fulfills what he has pledged to God, then He will grant him a great re ward.
4:59 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
I really must be reading some other version of AQ.....
Jafar:
--- Quote from: Al-Azhar on May 15, 2012, 07:57:03 PM ---2:247 And their prophet said to them: “God has sent Saul to you as a king.” They said: “How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?” He said: “God has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature.” God grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
--- End quote ---
Read 2:246 and it give you a clear indication of the consequences of 'having a king' or 'the whole objective of having a king'.. And how the israelites organized themselves before having a king. The request or idea of having a 'king' came from them in the first place..
And what the consequences are...
--- Quote ---27:16 And Solomon inherited from David, and he said: “O people, we have been taught how to understand the speech of the creatures that fly, and we have been given from everything. This is indeed an evident grace.”
--- End quote ---
So the story goes..
Saul power was 'unchecked', he became corrupt.. "The Israelite Prophet" who were mentioned in 2:246-247 withdrew his support and 'annointed' another young lad to oppose the corrupt King. The boy name is David. He launches a 'revolution' / 'civil war' to overthrow the king and he succeed... And (sadly) he become a king himself.. and didn't change the system.. His son Solomon inherited the power.. which then pass on the power to his son..
Solomon's son (supposedly named Rehoboam) turned out to be the last "king" within israelite history.. he increased taxes which incite a rebellion from the people.. and the israelites yet fought another civil war between them..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehoboam
That's the full (his)story of 'having a king'...
A similar pattern of story can be found within Sunni-Shiites civil war..
--- Quote ---4:59 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
--- End quote ---
The word is actually 'amr', mean 'leader' or 'care taker'..or 'those who entrusted to deal with matter'..(ulil amri)
A perfect equivalent of 'administrator'...
--- Quote ---I really must be reading some other version of AQ.....
--- End quote ---
Yup you're quoting the Quran with a a preconceived notion of "Kingdom"/"Sultanate"/"Emirate"...
The house of Saud (and other kingdom in the past) has uses the AQ in similar manner to justify their power and gain the absolute obedience from his subject..
Salam / Peace
lordfox:
The key is to understand that morality is not intellectual and logical. If I ask for an example of evil, one will give me an answer such as ''murder'' or ''thievery'', but this just a verbalization of our emotion, because these are not logical explanations, we cannot intellectually differentiate evil from good. The sphere of the intellectual and the emotional are different, as much as one cannot explain why X was sad on the day Y mathematically, one cannot say that this act was evil or good based on a bullet-proof logical and intellectual fact.
Thus, the peasant and the aristocrat will both systematically agree upon what is good and what is not, regardless of what they have or have not read. Upon this understanding, one will systematically arrive to the conclusion that the only law to be adopted is the one that is universal and appertains to each and every human being that is born on this earth, regardless of his class.
Let's hold on to what we know is true!
morninglight:
--- Quote from: Jafar on May 14, 2012, 05:06:32 PM ---The word is "Ummat", and "Ummat" correlate with "Society" rather than "Nation"...
Every society should have an 'administrator' but not a 'government'...
Kingship???? And pass his uncontrolled / unlegislated absolute power to his own progeny??
You must read the "House Of Saud" or "House Of Hashem" or "Bashar Assad" version of the Quran.. :rotfl: :rotfl:
The outright rejection over the concept of "Kingship" thus automatically granting power to the king's own son (or whomever else he wishes) without any consultation and agreement from the people is what makes Mr. Hussein Bin Ali got beheaded around 1400 years ago..
You're mentioning the functionality of 'administration' and not 'government'...
The real difference is on the 'military'.. or put it simply... the "State Government of California" is an 'administration' and not a 'government'... While the "Federal Government of US" IS a government..
Salam / Peace
--- End quote ---
Peace.
Government is government, no matter what other labels may be used. If it functions as a government, it is a government. Different terms do not change its substance.
Each of the United States has its own government.
It is clear that the Quran assumed governments. Notice that the Quran directed Mohammed's group to honor its treaty obligations. Notice also that the Quran gave them guidance for defensive warfare. The guidance that there is to be no compulsion as to religion (or faith) is also a limit ordered for government(s).
------
SOL's first words: I am not a baby, I am an infant.
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