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Your Thoughts on Secular Governments?

Started by ExplorerSeeker86, April 26, 2012, 09:47:40 PM

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lordfox

Quote from: Abdul-Hadi on April 27, 2012, 11:39:47 AM
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

I contrasted his idea with reality--not "ridicule" his ideas (loaded language much?  ;)).  Perchance he will provide evidence of success of his idealized system in the real world.

Further, in debunking my alleged strawman, you resorted to ad hominem.

Remove the beam from your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from mine.

Somalia is an extreme example, but it is one grounded in reality.

ALLAH knows best.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

Forget it, you understand neither strawman nor argumentum ad hominem - when it is sophism and when it is not - nor the present system of Somalia and how it came about, nor Kaikoerend's ideal system. In sum, you like last word and not true debate. 

:giveup:
''from the purlieus of some inhabited city, we bring you, a fervent mindist''

Mr.Q

Quote from: lordfox on April 27, 2012, 11:29:46 AM
Kaiokenred believes in the concept of a polycentric community - a natural law, a 'human energy' economic system and a complete allodial right of use. To ridicule his ideas, you give the example of Somalia, of which the system has no relation whatsoever with the one Kaiokenred defends.

This is found in the Quran where?

lordfox

''from the purlieus of some inhabited city, we bring you, a fervent mindist''

Mr.Q

You mean to say I have to read reams of someone else's opinions for you to show me where you found something you support in the Quran?

Why not just give the verses and I will look in the Quran and read it for myself and decide the use and context of the verses given? Why not just give the verses you based your view on?  ;)

lordfox

Quote from: Mr.Q on April 27, 2012, 05:03:10 PM
You mean to say I have to read reams of someone else's opinions for you to show me where you found something you support in the Quran?

Why not just give the verses and I will look in the Quran and read it for myself and decide the use and context of the verses given? Why not just give the verses you based your view on?  ;)

It is very unfortunate to see more and more people seeking defiance instead of peaceful discussion. If you were to click simply on the first link I provided you, you would have made an astonishing, law-defying discovery: The verses you so deeply want to ponder on are on the first paragraph.

I gave you links where the appropriated verses are detailed, you are free to study them alone and to ignore the ramblings of the so-very mad, deluded and evil lunatic who, to make fit his own agenda, decided to create a website where he'd write essays filled with logical fallacies, to manipulate men for his own profit and by-so, slowly conquer the world and then the entire universe.
''from the purlieus of some inhabited city, we bring you, a fervent mindist''

Karimah

Both Secular and Sectarian governments can be abusive and terrible but personally I would much rather have a secular government because I believe that one person's religion shouldn't dictate what others can do in their own life.
...O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.

Kaiokenred

Quote from: Abdul-Hadi on April 27, 2012, 11:32:17 AM
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Example of government in AQ:

2:247 And their prophet said to them: "GOD has sent Saul to you as a king." They said: "How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?" He said: "GOD has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature." GOD grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and GOD is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

16:116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe: "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.


Surely, you weren't claiming that government was forbidden, were you?  :)

AQ does contain a system/Deen, and anything that operates within that system is lawful.  Some of the things that operate within the system work better than other things, and some work better in different times and places than others.

It was bolded for those with eyes to see and minds to reason.

Can you state ALLAH's Law as it pertains to organization of people?  Links to somebody else's Kool-Aid are not desired.

ALLAH knows best.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

Governments aren't forbidden in Islam, you know why? Because Islam and governments can't co-exist.
You have to do more than stating a verse from a changed Quran with corrupted translations to make me disagree with my own common sense.
?Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.? - Buddha

Jafar

Quote from: ExplorerSeeker86 on April 27, 2012, 11:41:20 AM
You know Abdul funny that the Bible doesn't describe Saul as an entirely good guy. It says he later went astray. It also says that he was made king because the people rejected the Judges to rule over them because the other nations had kings.

Samuel told them that because of this the kings would steal their cattle, draft their sons for wars, etc. God granted their request though.

It's interesting you mentioned "Samuel"...
Early Israelites doesn't have any King/Sultan/Ruler/Dictator/Warlord... before Samuel...

What they had were only administrators and judges...



youssef4342

Peace & greetings be with you guys as well.

There would be some nice things about a non-religious government, and also bad things.

*How moral and godly would they be?
*And to what extent freedoms are granted?
*What code of law/basis are they going to lay their foundation upon ?
*God Almighty seemingly becoming a taboo in the public school system
*Power, greed, and injustice
*Who is going to rule the country (religious affiliations, race, etc)


and if you think that America has a lovely government, please read
Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About, by Kevin Trudeau
In the Book, please read about the corruption of the FDA and other Government organizations.
"it's all about the money"


Yes i would like the freedoms that i have in America, which could be derived and supported form the Quran itself...
There is no compulsion in religion (2:256), as we cannot guide everyone (6:149),
There is freedom to do (41:40)
There is freedom of worship (39:15)
these things might not be practiced by the so called "muslim" countries.
Facebook Group
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"Fear not those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear the one who can destroy both the soul and the body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Quote from: Kaiokenred on April 28, 2012, 12:14:01 PM
Governments aren't forbidden in Islam, you know why? Because Islam and governments can't co-exist.
You have to do more than stating a verse from a changed Quran with corrupted translations to make me disagree with my own common sense.

Do you have any Quranic evidence to support your position, if you seek to influence others to your understanding?  Provide a translation that you think is valid, or even your own translation.

Did you have this "common sense" before reading SOL?  :hmm Is it [SOL] somehow more compelling evidence than AQ? 

Nobody claims that any one form of government is 100% good all of the time, or appropriate for all times or places.

109:6 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi