Halal.. the real definition?

[Pleiades]

We kill an animal and delete this breath with permission from God. Therefore, we should not kill without reason, and all be aware that we have completed a life. I therefore believe in Allah calls us, mention the name over to the animal in contrast to the plants.
the dead meat, what we didn't thakaytum is forbidden. or meat, what the dogs catch and killed before it reach us.

Salam Mirjamnur - This is a very strong and good comment. May Allah bless you. He has granted you much wisdom.  I also sometimes ask clarifications from the website you mentioned and find them to be quite good / v. helpful. Do you know the author personally?

Thanks for the post

[good logic]

Peace Pleiades.


Word of GOD  V  word of men?  Are you satisfied that in the context of all the verses in the scripture that is what GOD commands?
or are you content to follow " others" without checking?

I have only seen one verse debated? You have to be careful not to follow " idols".

My advice is compare with all the verses that deal with " What did GOD forbid"?

Peace.

[Pleiades]

Peace logic,

I liked Mirjumnar's comments so I said so. I am entitled to my opinion.

Thanks for the advice, but I never really asked for it. No hard feelings.

Peace.

[good logic]

Peace Pleiades.
Sorry I was pointing the debate towards what GOD said.

You are free to do as you please. I have no power to do anything.
All power belongs to GOD Alone:

50:45″ We are fully aware of everything they utter, ( and do, think, plan etc….) while you have no power over them. Therefore remind with this Quran ( Message, scripture..) those who reverence My warnings.”

Peace again

[Mr.Q]

Peace logic,
I liked Mirjumnar's comments so I said so. I am entitled to my opinion.
Thanks for the advice, but I never really asked for it. No hard feelings.
Peace.

You are in the Free Minds Forum! Advice and opinions come unsolicited and for free! 

[Pleiades]

You are in the Free Minds Forum! Advice and opinions come unsolicited and for free! 

lol! True True Mr. Q You are indeed so right! ....... to all those on this forum

PS: Good logic - No worries, no offence taken at all ... :-) Peace.

[sushi1992]

Salam Sushi

i'm still to confused not only you.  but i found this article very informative. I discussed the matter before with the author of the website. Then he give me more explanations:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thakaytum%20FM3.htm
Here we see the expression  thakaytum in different  lexicons. The question arises as to whether those are already influenced by the tradition?



Please note that the Arabic word 'Thakaytum' has been used for 'slaughter' as a lawful manner of ending the life of an animal for consumption. This term appears in the same verse and is contrasted with the rejection of meat sacrificed on stone altars. Here the term 'Thubiha' is actually used, clearly indicating a familiarity of this process of sacrifice.

22.36

والبدن جعلنها لكم من شعئر الله لكم فيها خير فاذكروا اسم الله عليها صواف فإذا وجبت جنوبها فكلوا منها وأطعموا القانع والمعتر كذلك سخرنها لكم لعلكم تشكرون 

 the first example, speaking of thakaytum in connection with the trained animals. This should catch the animal alive, not dead then it is killed by the name of Allah over it . Thakaytum stands for a killing in order to eat it. Zhiba stands for Sacrifice, which God forbid, because it's pointless. In Lexikonen the two terms are always used as synonyms, but the Koran is mentioned Zhiba always negative. What does this mean for us? I think in this day and age, neither the methods of slaughter nor the livestock production is according to the law in the Qur'an . The animal is tortured, butchered, and certainly no thought of God. For me, this meat is not allowed. An animal is not like a plant, animals have a Ruh, a breath of life. We kill an animal and delete this breath with permission from God. Therefore, we should not kill without reason, and all be aware that we have completed a life. I therefore believe in Allah calls us, mention the name over to the animal in contrast to the plants.
the dead meat, what we didn't thakaytum is forbidden. or meat, what the dogs catch and killed before it reach us.
my humble view .
i wish you peace  

Selam Mirjamnur ,

Thank you for your contribution . I pretty much agree with you to be honest. And definitely, I believe that meat today is actually quite unnecessary in terms of the serious quantity at which the animals are slaughtered at when in this day and age we are provided with so many alternatives which can be easily possessed. Also, I thank you for making me ponder upon one verse you mentioned.. Not to kill without reason. As you said animals have Ruh so they come into this category and I think that alot of the animals killed are unnecessary nowadays... But points taken into consideration and glad we are on a similar wavelength .

Peace

[Aryan Warrior]

From my would-be current understanding

1) God's name does NOT need to be Mentioned AT THE TIME OF SLAUGHTERING.
2) God's name MUST be ***Remembered***before EATING THE ANIMAL

***the word used has the root of Z-K-R, thus you can remember God's name silently over the food, or outloud either way
(Does remembering God's name make a difference? Yes! (research :Masaru Emoto: Messages from Water)

*I think there are laws in the us which make Animals like cows have to be shot by a blow in the head before slaughtering to kind of render the animal brain dead
(This would render the animal unlawful since it has kind of been stricken/hit with an object, even if the animal is slaughtered after, the heart might not function properly to pump the blood out from the body, and the blood might retain in the organs, tissue/meat etc)

*Please only eat organic Kosher or Halal meat, that would be the best option.

This is a somewhat old post to reply to but I must say that I disagree about them bring shot in the =beaten to death. You state that they are braindead but not dead, so thats 1 thing thatis wrong as they weren't killed as such and the other thing is that shooting something IS NOT BEATING SOMETHING TO DEATH! Beating something requires you to use some club like object and keep mashing them over and over. By that logic duck hunting or any type of animal hunting isn't allowed as they use either guns or bows and those pierce to kill to beat to kill.

It might not be ethical to you but its not forbidden and its extrenely vague to say such a thing. If piercing the animal was forbidden then it would have likely been mentioned.

This prevents eating at almost any restaurant if living in the west and God sure isn't gonna burden us like that especially as Kosher and "halal" meat is expensive.

They don't beat the animals, nor do they mention it in the name of something other than God, nor do they bring out gored meat, nor do they have dead on itself meat, or strange them or drop them from a height or get the meat through arrows of chance.

So don't forbid what God hasn't forbid by very vaguely claiming that shooting an animal is the same as beating them.  If I want my Big Mac or Roast Beef Subway sub, I can have them and simply mention or remember the name of God on them before consumption

[Aryan Warrior]

Anyways in regards to the topic. 5:3 has clearly mentioned that what we can't eat:

 "5:3 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted submission as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful."

Some like to add more things such methods of killing or things you can't eat but they are wrong as verse 6:45 points out:

 "Say: "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful." (6:145)

Thus any additional rules some of these traditionalists like to add like lobster, crab, shot with a gun or arrow, putting to sleeping, electricution are not mentioned therefore the meat you buy in the west is not forbidden at all. Course one thing I say to watch out for is veil as I heard a story from my friend (not sure if its true though) that they make veil die of itself by keeping it in a cage. Course that needs more research if true or not.

Course then you got those who say 6:121 states you can't eat meat that doesn't have the name of God on it at slaughter. That is also false. 6:121 mentions nothing of slaughter nor meat. It simply states not to eat something(any type of food) which doesn't have Gods named mentioned it. some will argue there that it indeed requires it at slaughter otherwise its forbidden but as 6:145 mentions it, there are no additional rueles other than what is mentioned. The closest thing would be the opposite that is mentioned which states not to eat that which the name of God has been invoked on but never states if the name is not mentioned on that its not okay.  Thus simply stating "Bismillah"  before eating it covers 6:121.

Therefore eating a Big Mac, or KFC or a meaty sub at subway is in no ways forbidden.

The whoke "halal" market is in my opinion a scam. Coming out of hadiths and many other things and likely made up for the purpose of scamming muslims to buy their expensive meat. Hell they've even to lengths of trying to state Christian and Jewish meat is forbidden when the Quran has specifically mentioned them as lawful.

Funny enough we have hadiths where the Prophet was asked if they can eat a meat they were unsure was slaughtered with the name of God on it and he simply said to say Bismillah and eat it.

[Aryan Warrior]

I also thought I should add this about the part of 5:3 that talks about blood.

After reading this topic I looked more things up myself and noticed much inconsistencies.

The traditionalists say that the when it states we can't eat blood, that would meat we would have to completely drain it out of meat.  This in itself is wrong as no matter how much they try to drain it, there will ALWAYS be some blood left in it. I've seen the so called "halal" meat that is sold to have blood spilling off it. Does this mean we simply can't eat meat? clearly not and 6:145 gives us a clear definition of what it means by not eating blood:

"Say: "I do not find in what is inspired to me to be unlawful for any eater to eat except that it be already dead, or running blood, or the meat of pig - for it is foul - or what is a wickedness, dedicated to other than God." But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful." (6:145)

While 5:3 simply said blood, this verse had running blood instead, thus further defining what God means in its consumption.  Thus we can't eat that raw blood. What we must do is simply eat food that is cooked to "well done" where the pink is gone and all is brown and thus the blood is burnt away. Some may argue blood is still there, while it may be true but it isn't flowing nor is it harmful to us as raw blood is harmful to humans.  This also means no rare, blue rare, medium rare or any sort of pink meat or steak no cups of blood, no "Tigers Blood" XDDD (oh Charlie Sheen...) Thus whenever I go to a Korean Grill House and am given meat to grill, I always cook mine till it is slightly burned (probably out of being paranoid so I won't be sick but now also due to the blood factor.