Author Topic: Code 19  (Read 5118 times)

MesMorial

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Code 19
« on: April 23, 2012, 10:20:54 PM »
I post this here since it is about words (not counts).



***



PART 1 (why I find it false on its face)


1) In ?Over it nineteen?, the ?IT? refers to saqar (not the Qur?an). The consequence is that it refers to 19 ANGELS. See 4).


2) ?Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the HOSTS OF YOUR LORD but He Himself.?

The hosts of the Lord are angels (8:9). If the verse was about Code 19, it would not say this. The hypocrites are wondering what God means by making angels wardens.


3) 74:31 is parallel to 17:60 and 37:63, where there are trials to see whether people believe. The inclusion of 19 angels (not the number 19) is a threat, so people know they have been warned.


4) ?19? being a sign is actually ?19 angels? being a sign. For instance, in 2:185, a person should fast for an ?equal count of days?. Let us say 6. You could say their count is 6, but it is ONE grouped specification of 6 certain DAYS. Likewise, in 9:36, the count of the months is 12. Obviously more than 12 have passed since the beginning of history, but there are 12 in the GROUPING of certain months. So 74:31 should be read as ?the counting of certain angels?. The selecting (counting) of 19 angels serves as the fitna. The word ?count? is different to ?number?, because when you count you consider each as a part of a group. ?Number? is a measure of ?amount?, but it does not involve selection. There were 19 angels grouped, so their selection (count) was 1 (1 group). The NUMBER of angels is 19, but this is just how many were in the count.

If the Qur?an is saying that the number COUNTED is the sign, it would say ?3adad? (not ?iddat?). That is: ?We made the number counted as a fitna?? However, what it says is: ?We made their selection (of 19 angels) as a fitna?? The number is 19 because there are 19 angels. The count is 1, because there was 1 grouping of 19 angels.

To emphasise:

A count of 6 days is just one count of 6 days. So a count of 19 angels is one count of 19 angels. The number is the number actually in the count (which is NOT the sign in 74:31).

Notice the Qur?an always says ?count OF something? (e.g. 9:36). This is because ?counting? means ?including?. You cannot have a ?number? of something, because a number is simply a number (of nothing). Notice enumerating something is different to counting it (65:1).



PART 2 (explanation of verse)


Over Hell there are nineteen entities. These entities are angels, and the inclusion of 19 angels is a trial for people. The people who were given the book see that this is from God, and those who believe increase in faith.

This is parallel to 17:60 and 37:63, where there are trials to see whether people believe. The inclusion of 19 angels (not the number 19) is a threat, so people know they have been warned. As in 3:7, people with good hearts recognise it is from God. They say they believe in it, and those with the right attitude increase in faith (8:2). Notice the recitation increases them, so the recitation of 74:31 (as part of the threat) will increase them in faith.

People with the wrong attitude will not take it at face value. They will go ?deep?. This is because they are not satisfied that it is from God, and expect it to have a deeper meaning/purpose. Unfortunately, there is no deeper meaning; the angels serve their purpose, and 74:31 warns people. Believers have to be satisfied, because only God knows the angels. The description of 19 angels has no other purpose, and there is nothing about these angels that humans can learn (in order to understand the warning). Misguided people expect an example with deeper import. I think the word ?mathala? more closely means ?comparison?, so they are questioning the comparison of angels as wardens (i.e. ?why did God make the angels as wardens, and why did He tell us??).

The allegorical verses are verses which provide LIKENESS. They do not present reality, because descriptions therein are of imperceptible things (e.g. the zaqqum tree).

Thus, I suggest that the word ?mutashābihātun? in 3:7 be more precisely translated as ?likeness? (or ?representation?). None knows what the verses are truly representing, but certain people push their own interpretation.

Also, ?Code 19? can use 74:30 only because of what 74:31 says about it!

Take out the phrase ?we have made their count (the inclusion of 19 angels) as a trial...?. We will get ?Over it is nineteen. We have made the wardens angels. Nay! I swear by the moon...?. This is the only valid evidence to suppose that there is a code. The part of 74:31 I left out is the part that says there IS a fitna. Without the Qur?an saying it, there is very little likelihood of a code. To be fair, the fitna-causing has to be as efficient whether or not the Qur?an says it WILL cause fitna.

?We have made their count a trial...? is therefore not even relevant evidence for Code 19. The verses 74:32-56 refer to the reminder of the hereafter, not to something causing fitna.

Edip Yuksel

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 11:14:04 PM »
Nothing new. The same excuses to blind oneself to this great miracle...

Here is my comprehensive refutation of your excuses:


http://19.org/147/which-one-do-you-see-hell-or-miracle/
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

Edip Yuksel

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 11:17:35 PM »
You are also repeating the same false arguments made by Ayman, which have been exposed and refuted in the past. I have published them in my recent book, Runing Like Zebras... If you want to get it electronically, please send me an email via GMAIL address, so that I give you access to the book in my Gmail Document...

Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

MesMorial

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 11:47:34 PM »
I have sent you my Gmail.

There would be too many points for me to raise now, so I will look at the article more closely, and see the replies in the book.

Peace.

MesMorial

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2012, 02:39:52 AM »
As I thought, the question of what "saqar" means is not relevant. I deliberately did not translate it, because the point was that "19" was over a negative thing ("saqar", as opposed to the Qur'an).

Saqar (in all occurrences) fits in well with something like Hell. The angels are the wardens of saqar, since they send people into it (54:48). It does not have to be Hell, but it is not "Code 19" (or something positive like miracles).

It does not make sense to assume "saqar" means something different in 74:27. If you say it means something different, you cannot assume the "19" in 74:30 is the count of angels (in 74:31).

You made some points about what the "reminder" referred to, but I did not say it referred to "Hell". I said:


"The verses 74:32-56 refer to the reminder of the hereafter, not to something causing fitna."


It is a reminder that there IS a hereafter (involving angels and saqar). 74:51 suggests that it is the HEREAFTER they are rejecting, not "Code 19". Is "Code 19" a reminder? No, because Code 19 is not the verses (which are doing the reminding). The purpose of 74:32-56 is to tell people to heed the reminder (contained in the verses). "Code 19" can't remind, since verses already do so.


To back this up:

"We made their count..." is not valid evidence for proving "Code 19". It says that angels (19 of them) will be a fitna. These 19 angels were mentioned before the phrase, thus the fitna SHOULD occur without it. It SHOULD have an effect on believers, hypocrites etc. whether or not 74:31 says it will.

The phrase "we made their count" (with subsequent sentences) is central to "Code 19". Without it, there is nothing to say there is something significant about the count of 19 (angels). However, fitna would occur without these sentences, meaning - the fitna could not involve the verses saying there would be a fitna!

So, to look at it fairly and objectively, we have this evidence for "Code 19" (I skipped some lines):


"We will cast him into saqar ... Over it nineteen. We have made its wardens angels. Nay! By the moon... It is one of the greatest ... a reminder..."


Basically, the reminder is that there is a hereafter involving Hell and angels (these angels mentioned in 54:48). The people who flee like zebras are those who flee the reminder (verses).

Edip Yuksel

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2012, 08:31:37 AM »
Interesting... You are so good in missing the incredible points there... How can you be so good in blinding yourself to so many signs? To me, this alone is another fulfillment of the miracle, which is also a prophecy in 74:31.

I do not need to discuss this issue further with you dear friend. You are welcome to see Hell and its smoke all over. As it appears, you have made choice not to see beyond the smoke in your imagination.

Of course, you might come up with equally silly interpretation how the 19 of your hell will increase the acknowledgement of mumins, will remove doubts in the heart of those who are given books...

Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

MesMorial

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2012, 02:47:15 PM »
This is not a personal thing.

I tried to offer something new. I had not seen the obvious point about 74:31 being invalid evidence (but maybe I was blind to it). If there is a respose to that, then don't worry about the rest.

But if Code 19 is the reminder, we have to ask WHY when the verses are already reminding of everything it would be able to remind us of.

74:31 increasing people's faith is no different to 8:2.

Angels are wardens of saqar. Saqar spares nothing, and it is visible to humans. People don't know what saqar is (74:26), but they will SEE it when they see it!

nimnimak_11

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 02:57:26 AM »
I post this here since it is about words (not counts).



***



PART 1 (why I find it false on its face)


1) In ?Over it nineteen?, the ?IT? refers to saqar (not the Qur?an). The consequence is that it refers to 19 ANGELS. See 4).


2) ?Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the HOSTS OF YOUR LORD but He Himself.?

The hosts of the Lord are angels (8:9). If the verse was about Code 19, it would not say this. The hypocrites are wondering what God means by making angels wardens.


3) 74:31 is parallel to 17:60 and 37:63, where there are trials to see whether people believe. The inclusion of 19 angels (not the number 19) is a threat, so people know they have been warned.


4) ?19? being a sign is actually ?19 angels? being a sign. For instance, in 2:185, a person should fast for an ?equal count of days?. Let us say 6. You could say their count is 6, but it is ONE grouped specification of 6 certain DAYS. Likewise, in 9:36, the count of the months is 12. Obviously more than 12 have passed since the beginning of history, but there are 12 in the GROUPING of certain months. So 74:31 should be read as ?the counting of certain angels?. The selecting (counting) of 19 angels serves as the fitna. The word ?count? is different to ?number?, because when you count you consider each as a part of a group. ?Number? is a measure of ?amount?, but it does not involve selection. There were 19 angels grouped, so their selection (count) was 1 (1 group). The NUMBER of angels is 19, but this is just how many were in the count.

If the Qur?an is saying that the number COUNTED is the sign, it would say ?3adad? (not ?iddat?). That is: ?We made the number counted as a fitna?? However, what it says is: ?We made their selection (of 19 angels) as a fitna?? The number is 19 because there are 19 angels. The count is 1, because there was 1 grouping of 19 angels.

To emphasise:

A count of 6 days is just one count of 6 days. So a count of 19 angels is one count of 19 angels. The number is the number actually in the count (which is NOT the sign in 74:31).

Notice the Qur?an always says ?count OF something? (e.g. 9:36). This is because ?counting? means ?including?. You cannot have a ?number? of something, because a number is simply a number (of nothing). Notice enumerating something is different to counting it (65:1).



PART 2 (explanation of verse)


Over Hell there are nineteen entities. These entities are angels, and the inclusion of 19 angels is a trial for people. The people who were given the book see that this is from God, and those who believe increase in faith.

This is parallel to 17:60 and 37:63, where there are trials to see whether people believe. The inclusion of 19 angels (not the number 19) is a threat, so people know they have been warned. As in 3:7, people with good hearts recognise it is from God. They say they believe in it, and those with the right attitude increase in faith (8:2). Notice the recitation increases them, so the recitation of 74:31 (as part of the threat) will increase them in faith.

People with the wrong attitude will not take it at face value. They will go ?deep?. This is because they are not satisfied that it is from God, and expect it to have a deeper meaning/purpose. Unfortunately, there is no deeper meaning; the angels serve their purpose, and 74:31 warns people. Believers have to be satisfied, because only God knows the angels. The description of 19 angels has no other purpose, and there is nothing about these angels that humans can learn (in order to understand the warning). Misguided people expect an example with deeper import. I think the word ?mathala? more closely means ?comparison?, so they are questioning the comparison of angels as wardens (i.e. ?why did God make the angels as wardens, and why did He tell us??).

The allegorical verses are verses which provide LIKENESS. They do not present reality, because descriptions therein are of imperceptible things (e.g. the zaqqum tree).

Thus, I suggest that the word ?mutashābihātun? in 3:7 be more precisely translated as ?likeness? (or ?representation?). None knows what the verses are truly representing, but certain people push their own interpretation.

Also, ?Code 19? can use 74:30 only because of what 74:31 says about it!

Take out the phrase ?we have made their count (the inclusion of 19 angels) as a trial...?. We will get ?Over it is nineteen. We have made the wardens angels. Nay! I swear by the moon...?. This is the only valid evidence to suppose that there is a code. The part of 74:31 I left out is the part that says there IS a fitna. Without the Qur?an saying it, there is very little likelihood of a code. To be fair, the fitna-causing has to be as efficient whether or not the Qur?an says it WILL cause fitna.

?We have made their count a trial...? is therefore not even relevant evidence for Code 19. The verses 74:32-56 refer to the reminder of the hereafter, not to something causing fitna.

Peace Mesmorial

So whats your take on the pattern that is there. By this I mean chapters, certain words, initials and so on all being divisible by 19. Would you take that as a coincidence? Do you not think that there is some clear indication of there being something centred around 19 regarding the structure of the Quran?

MesMorial

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2012, 03:45:22 AM »
Dear Nimnimak;


I have not studied it.

It is not "visible" unless we buy a book that managed to avoid the errors which people couldn't verify until a few years ago.

Even then, we cannot be sure that what we are reading is true.

Since Code 19 does not satisfy the first test, I would assume it is inaccurate. For example, there are 113 chapters in the WARNING (including Sura 9).

There is so much discussion on it that it is a blur.

In short, if there is a clear miracle, it should be indisputable.

Being a non-Muslim, there are many other "next problems" which should be solved before I worry about something vague.

I will check it further.

Cheers;
Peace.

Mr.Q

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Re: Code 19
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2012, 07:03:53 AM »
The miracles of say, Moses and Jesus were clear and indisputable in the hearts of those who believed yet they were rejected, disputed and called "magic" but those who rejected them.