Website Comments / Observations > Free-Minds.Org / ProgressiveMuslims.Org
An Open Letter of Sorts
MaverickMonotheist:
Several months ago, I came to this forum after having lapsed into atheism and agnosticism. During this time I was always angry and combative, I lacked self-discipline and purpose, so naturally my marriage was on shaky ground and I was not being a very good parent. I received kind words and good advice from some of the members here. I am grateful for that, and will not forget it. I thought, “Perhaps this is where I belong.”
Since that time, I’ve come to see things a little differently. Don’t get me wrong, if this were just another internet forum, I would not say any of these things. But my understanding is that Free Minds has the purpose of moving from internet discussion to engagement with the real world as an organization. If this is truly the case, then I have some observations. Like most of what I say, I’m certain that this will not make me popular, but I feel I need to point out some things because I owe a debt to this community for the sound advice and prayers that were offered when I asked for help.
The difference is that no one here is asking for me help, and so these comments are unsolicited. Nonetheless, I feel like things are stagnant here and I have some thoughts as to why. Why aren’t things growing? Why are ventures not being established in real life? Why are people trickling in and out of the forum? Why are we going round and round over the same issues over and over again with no real resolution?
1. It seems to me that a lot of this goes back to emphasizing the same things as traditional Islam. Sunnis are, for the most part, pretty homogenous on what they consider to be essentials. They pray the same at the same time. They follow the same scholars who all say pretty much the same things. They follow the same calendar, they fast together, they make pilgrimage to the same place. And they consider this to be a good thing, and they see this as evidence that they are rightly guided. I’m afraid that we are playing the same game. We argue as a forum over what is the right place of hajj and when the sacred months are. We argue over the number of times to pray. We argue over evidence and hermeneutics. We never come to any real resolution over these issues, and so we never unite to do anything. So, either the Qur’an is not fully detailed, or we are arguing over things that the Qur’an is intentionally vague about. We are spending a lot of time on things that are not as important as things that the Qur’an makes more of a fuss about. If we are not going to be able to reach a majority or consensus over most of these issues, we need an approach that allows us to maintain unity through a few basic essentials of Quranic monotheism, and an approach that views a certain level of tolerance as a spiritual act of recognizing man’s inability to answer all of the questions.
2. The position of Sunni Islam related to the hadiths is not nearly as simple as many of the people here make it out to be. The Sunna is a complex and formidable corpus to wrestle with. After having engaged a few traditional muslims who take this seriously in conversation, it isn’t that simple to refute. BUT what I can say is that dealing with hadith and sunna is not a spiritual task. In the few weeks of dealing with it, I felt confused and uncertain of anything related to God and what is the right path. I assume that this is probably the experience of many converts to traditional Islam. They encounter the Qur’an and are moved by its deep spirituality and truth. Then they convert and become overwhelmed with the complexity of Islam’s oral tradition, and so they give up. Unfortunately, simply rejecting the hadiths does not solve this problem. The same approach can be used with the Qur’an alone, and it can leave people feeling the same way. One only needs to look at the threads related to Ramadan or code 19 to see how the right path can perhaps get lost in the details. The Qur’an has the ability to affect people in their hearts, to move them in a way that they cannot understand. While I am a firm believer in good scholarship and not accepting simple or easy answers, I think we need to make sure that we do not fall into the trap of the scholarship of traditional Islam and make things complex for the sake of complexity or winning arguments. While many of the people here do this, I think the simple spirituality of the Qur’an needs to be greatly emphasized over the rational discussions and arguments.
3. I think this needs to be clear: is this just an internet forum, or is this website intended to serve the purpose of establishing God Alone organizations and gatherings? Lots of things on the website suggest that the aim is establishing something tangible. But most of the discussion and the tendency to have some pretty unpleasant rhetoric towards one another leads me to believe that this will never get beyond a forum.
4. If the fatwas that declare the rejectors of mutawaatir hadiths to be kaffirun were overturned today, what would be the unifying elements of this community? I don’t know. I think this community is better defined by what it rejects, and not what we hold in common. No viable or spiritually healthy community can be held together solely by what it is against. Once what it is against goes away or is no longer relevant, then the organization splinters. What are the absolute unifying principles of this organization that would hold a diverse body of people together in lasting community? What are we here for? If we aren’t doing it, why aren’t we?
Again, I’m sure this won’t make me any friends here. I hope this is not viewed as an attack on the community. I am grateful for what I have received from many of the members here in terms of good conversation and sound advice. I respect many of you immensely. So it is because of this respect that I’m writing this in the hopes that a conversation will begin in order to move things forward into whatever God wills for FM. While I believe that each of us will stand before God as individuals, I also believe that God did not intend for us to live in spiritual isolation from one another. Our path is one to be undertaken in community, and among brothers and sisters. This connection should, IMHO, go beyond discussing things on a thread and relating only to those that we agree most with.
Peace,
Joel
Kaiokenred:
--- Quote from: MaverickMonotheist on April 23, 2012, 07:23:53 AM ---Several months ago, I came to this forum after having lapsed into atheism and agnosticism. During this time I was always angry and combative, I lacked self-discipline and purpose, so naturally my marriage was on shaky ground and I was not being a very good parent. I received kind words and good advice from some of the members here. I am grateful for that, and will not forget it. I thought, “Perhaps this is where I belong.”
Since that time, I’ve come to see things a little differently. Don’t get me wrong, if this were just another internet forum, I would not say any of these things. But my understanding is that Free Minds has the purpose of moving from internet discussion to engagement with the real world as an organization. If this is truly the case, then I have some observations. Like most of what I say, I’m certain that this will not make me popular, but I feel I need to point out some things because I owe a debt to this community for the sound advice and prayers that were offered when I asked for help.
The difference is that no one here is asking for me help, and so these comments are unsolicited. Nonetheless, I feel like things are stagnant here and I have some thoughts as to why. Why aren’t things growing? Why are ventures not being established in real life? Why are people trickling in and out of the forum? Why are we going round and round over the same issues over and over again with no real resolution?
1. It seems to me that a lot of this goes back to emphasizing the same things as traditional Islam. Sunnis are, for the most part, pretty homogenous on what they consider to be essentials. They pray the same at the same time. They follow the same scholars who all say pretty much the same things. They follow the same calendar, they fast together, they make pilgrimage to the same place. And they consider this to be a good thing, and they see this as evidence that they are rightly guided. I’m afraid that we are playing the same game. We argue as a forum over what is the right place of hajj and when the sacred months are. We argue over the number of times to pray. We argue over evidence and hermeneutics. We never come to any real resolution over these issues, and so we never unite to do anything. So, either the Qur’an is not fully detailed, or we are arguing over things that the Qur’an is intentionally vague about. We are spending a lot of time on things that are not as important as things that the Qur’an makes more of a fuss about. If we are not going to be able to reach a majority or consensus over most of these issues, we need an approach that allows us to maintain unity through a few basic essentials of Quranic monotheism, and an approach that views a certain level of tolerance as a spiritual act of recognizing man’s inability to answer all of the questions.
2. The position of Sunni Islam related to the hadiths is not nearly as simple as many of the people here make it out to be. The Sunna is a complex and formidable corpus to wrestle with. After having engaged a few traditional muslims who take this seriously in conversation, it isn’t that simple to refute. BUT what I can say is that dealing with hadith and sunna is not a spiritual task. In the few weeks of dealing with it, I felt confused and uncertain of anything related to God and what is the right path. I assume that this is probably the experience of many converts to traditional Islam. They encounter the Qur’an and are moved by its deep spirituality and truth. Then they convert and become overwhelmed with the complexity of Islam’s oral tradition, and so they give up. Unfortunately, simply rejecting the hadiths does not solve this problem. The same approach can be used with the Qur’an alone, and it can leave people feeling the same way. One only needs to look at the threads related to Ramadan or code 19 to see how the right path can perhaps get lost in the details. The Qur’an has the ability to affect people in their hearts, to move them in a way that they cannot understand. While I am a firm believer in good scholarship and not accepting simple or easy answers, I think we need to make sure that we do not fall into the trap of the scholarship of traditional Islam and make things complex for the sake of complexity or winning arguments. While many of the people here do this, I think the simple spirituality of the Qur’an needs to be greatly emphasized over the rational discussions and arguments.
3. I think this needs to be clear: is this just an internet forum, or is this website intended to serve the purpose of establishing God Alone organizations and gatherings? Lots of things on the website suggest that the aim is establishing something tangible. But most of the discussion and the tendency to have some pretty unpleasant rhetoric towards one another leads me to believe that this will never get beyond a forum.
4. If the fatwas that declare the rejectors of mutawaatir hadiths to be kaffirun were overturned today, what would be the unifying elements of this community? I don’t know. I think this community is better defined by what it rejects, and not what we hold in common. No viable or spiritually healthy community can be held together solely by what it is against. Once what it is against goes away or is no longer relevant, then the organization splinters. What are the absolute unifying principles of this organization that would hold a diverse body of people together in lasting community? What are we here for? If we aren’t doing it, why aren’t we?
Again, I’m sure this won’t make me any friends here. I hope this is not viewed as an attack on the community. I am grateful for what I have received from many of the members here in terms of good conversation and sound advice. I respect many of you immensely. So it is because of this respect that I’m writing this in the hopes that a conversation will begin in order to move things forward into whatever God wills for FM. While I believe that each of us will stand before God as individuals, I also believe that God did not intend for us to live in spiritual isolation from one another. Our path is one to be undertaken in community, and among brothers and sisters. This connection should, IMHO, go beyond discussing things on a thread and relating only to those that we agree most with.
Peace,
Joel
--- End quote ---
The Quran is fully detailed, it's just that the translations are corrupted by hadiths, and christianized.
MaverickMonotheist:
--- Quote from: Kaiokenred on April 23, 2012, 11:40:06 AM ---The Quran is fully detailed, it's just that the translations are corrupted by hadiths, and christianized.
--- End quote ---
I think the corruption is no place other than our own hearts. I think it is too easy to blame the hadiths or the Christians or the Jews, or whomever or whatever, but really the disease is in our hearts. The remedy isn't the number of rakats or a proper translation of the Qur'an or doing hajj at the right time or the right place. It is something else. Something that binds all of us together and fashions us into a particular kind of person and a particular kind of community. God knows I don't know what it is, but let's at least talk about whether or not our current way of addressing our hearts is working or not. If not, why not, and what do we do about it?
Peace,
Joel
GODsubmitter:
Thank you MaverickMonotheist for the sincere and excellent post!
I agree on almost everything you wrote, and must admit that I feel the same!
After two years after embracing Islam and following this forum for instruction and spiritual guidance, I find myself frustrated and overwhelmed by confusion of interpretations, translations of the Qur'an and divergences of opinions on even the most basic issues such as prayer, hajj or Ramadan fast, not to mention calendar.
I ask myself why would one choose Islam?
"You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
GODsubmitter:
--- Quote from: MaverickMonotheist on April 23, 2012, 12:44:28 PM ---I think the corruption is no place other than our own hearts. I think it is too easy to blame the hadiths or the Christians or the Jews, or whomever or whatever, but really the disease is in our hearts. The remedy isn't the number of rakats or a proper translation of the Qur'an or doing hajj at the right time or the right place. It is something else. Something that binds all of us together and fashions us into a particular kind of person and a particular kind of community. God knows I don't know what it is, but let's at least talk about whether or not our current way of addressing our hearts is working or not. If not, why not, and what do we do about it?
Peace,
Joel
--- End quote ---
That question was posed in the third chapter of the Bible, and the Patriarchs, Prophets and Jesus tried to give answers and cures already. I wonder if mankind is just simply too stupid to understand, or there is no hope and God doesn't involve Himself in human life at all?
The Qur'an does not offer anything new that was not already in the Bible, Midrash, Talmud and the New Testament!
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