Ka'ba is not the House of Ibrahim

[drfazl]

According to 14: 37

"O our Lord! I have made my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.

Allah would surely have accepted and granted the prayer and submission of prophet Ibrahim and made the precinct of the Ka'ba, the first house prophet Ibrahim built, into the land of irrigation, cultivable with rivers of water; and there should have been fruit bearing trees of every kind in and around the Ka'ba. Hence Ka'ba should be in an OASIS of some desert, and not in the desert of Mecca.

[Jafar]

Allah would surely have accepted and granted the prayer and submission of prophet Ibrahim and made the precinct of the Ka'ba, the first house prophet Ibrahim built, into the land of irrigation, cultivable with rivers of water; and there should have been fruit bearing trees of every kind in and around the Ka'ba. Hence Ka'ba should be in an OASIS of some desert, and not in the desert of Mecca.

There's no "Ka'ba" in that verse, where did you get the name?

[Pazuzu]

@ drfazl.

The correct translation is:

{O our Rabb! I have settled of my offspring in an uncultivated valley, AT Your Forbidden Sanctuary; My Rabb, that they  may establish regular Salat: so let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks}...[14:37]

The key word here is "AT". The Arabic text says "3inda" (which means AT), not "qurba" (which means near).

This means that the valley ITSELF is the bayt (Sanctuary).

Now the QUran has used 3 descriptions for that place:

Al-Bayt'ul 2aram
Al-Bayt'ul 3ateeq
Al-Bay't ul Ma3moor

Also, the Quran states that the Kaaba IS the sanctuary itself. This means that the Kaaba is a NATURAL place, not some man-made cubic idol covered with a black cloth. Also, the term "kaab" denotes something that is standing out, high, or prominent. The heel of the foot is called "kaab", because the bone sticks out. The head of a priestly order is called "kaab", because he is the prominent figure. Hence the "Kaaba" is an elevated vale (like a bowl-shaped dell) in a mountainous region.

And yes, you are 100% right. "Uncultivated" does not mean an arid and desert-like place (like the place where the current fake Kaaba is located). The Arabic text says that the vale did not have any  "ZAR3" in it, which means that no human had previously settled it or ploughed its land. "Zar3" indicates human effort to plant things. Naturally occuring trees and flora are called "NABAT", not "Zar3". Hence, Abraham settled his progeny in a desolate, wilderness place that was considered sacred to the inhabitants of the region even before Abraham had migrated to there.

And this is the very same place where Allah later spoke to Moses and told him to remove his shoes, because he was in the Purified Vale (al-wady al-muqaddas). And the mountain over-looking that valley was described as being a "Tur" (meaning: a wooden mountain - mountain  covered by trees), where bramble and olive trees grew. Every single Arabic interpretation in history indicates that a "tur" = wooded mountain, whereas a barren, rocky mountain is called "jabal" (not "tur").

The sight of the current Hajj is hence 100%  false. And the "Tur Sina'a" mentioned in the Quran is the proper name of a spot of land containing wooded mountains, and that has nothing to do with the current Sinai Pennisula which is part of Egypt.

Peace..

[drfazl]

There's no "Ka'ba" in that verse, where did you get the name?

It is the general 'islamic belief' the fitst house built by ibrahim is the present kaba. So 14:37 refers to Ibrahim's first house, kaba which should be in the oasis today and not in mecca.

[Wakas]

salaam pazuzu,

I'm not sure if the word "3inda" means "at" but it is possible.

Also, from my own studies, from another angle, it seems "al kaaba" is a geographical region/space, chosen to serve a purpose, in which the various laws of the inviolable months are in force. So it could be a base (or valley) or elevated area. I am still studying this aspect.

[Bigmo]

@ drfazl.

The correct translation is:

{O our Rabb! I have settled of my offspring in an uncultivated valley, AT Your Forbidden Sanctuary; My Rabb, that they  may establish regular Salat: so let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks}...[14:37]

The key word here is "AT". The Arabic text says "3inda" (which means AT), not "qurba" (which means near).

This means that the valley ITSELF is the bayt (Sanctuary).

Now the QUran has used 3 descriptions for that place:

Al-Bayt'ul 2aram
Al-Bayt'ul 3ateeq
Al-Bay't ul Ma3moor

Also, the Quran states that the Kaaba IS the sanctuary itself. This means that the Kaaba is a NATURAL place, not some man-made cubic idol covered with a black cloth. Also, the term "kaab" denotes something that is standing out, high, or prominent. The heel of the foot is called "kaab", because the bone sticks out. The head of a priestly order is called "kaab", because he is the prominent figure. Hence the "Kaaba" is an elevated vale (like a bowl-shaped dell) in a mountainous region.

And yes, you are 100% right. "Uncultivated" does not mean an arid and desert-like place (like the place where the current fake Kaaba is located). The Arabic text says that the vale did not have any  "ZAR3" in it, which means that no human had previously settled it or ploughed its land. "Zar3" indicates human effort to plant things. Naturally occuring trees and flora are called "NABAT", not "Zar3". Hence, Abraham settled his progeny in a desolate, wilderness place that was considered sacred to the inhabitants of the region even before Abraham had migrated to there.

And this is the very same place where Allah later spoke to Moses and told him to remove his shoes, because he was in the Purified Vale (al-wady al-muqaddas). And the mountain over-looking that valley was described as being a "Tur" (meaning: a wooden mountain - mountain  covered by trees), where bramble and olive trees grew. Every single Arabic interpretation in history indicates that a "tur" = wooded mountain, whereas a barren, rocky mountain is called "jabal" (not "tur").

The sight of the current Hajj is hence 100%  false. And the "Tur Sina'a" mentioned in the Quran is the proper name of a spot of land containing wooded mountains, and that has nothing to do with the current Sinai Pennisula which is part of Egypt.

Peace..

First it is wrong to call the Ka'ba an idol. This is not a theological argument. Second you can not say you are 100% sure. What you can say is that many prophets never made haj there so it can not be an obligation. But as far as the practice of doing haj there then its all about intention since many prophets in the OT had places of pilgrimages and sanctuaries and made animal sacrifices. It has nothing to do with idol worship.

Idol worship is something very different. We have a habit of simplifying shirk and idol worship which is actually surprising for a Koranist given its the unforgiveable sin.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7359195828637989025#

[drfazl]

East and West belongs to Allah; but Ka'ba makes us face just one direction If we should communicate with Him. The presence of Ka'ba contradicts and has been erected to defeat the ayat 2: 115

[Herring]

I was thinking here that this says that it was a un-cultivated valley.It is well known that most of the holy land was uncultivated until Israeli and western scientists came and brought new techniques in agriculture and now many posts that were desert are now gardens. We know that the children of Israel will be gathered this has happened. I think maybe it is the Done of the a rock and the holy land more generally?

See Edip Yuksel The Natural Republic. Also the writings of Lath-Shaban. Are there not keith that day there should be the places of pilgrimage. Why did the Clip ibn Malik send a army to burn down the Mecca kaaba?

[Bigmo]

East and West belongs to Allah; but Ka'ba makes us face just one direction If we should communicate with Him. The presence of Ka'ba contradicts and has been erected to defeat the ayat 2: 115

The Koran does say that the Jews and Christians have their own Qibla. Both these religions have a tradition about facing Jerusalem or the East or West.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrah

The Talmud lays down the rule that if one prays in the Diaspora, he shall direct himself toward the Land of Israel; in Israel, toward Jerusalem; in Jerusalem, toward the Temple; and in the Temple, toward the Holy of Holies. The same rule is found in the Mishnah; however, it is prescribed for individual prayers only rather than for congregational prayers at a synagogue. Thus, if a man is east of the Temple, he should turn westward; if in the west, eastward; in the south, northward; and if in the north, southward.
 
The custom is based on the prayer of Solomon (I Kings 8:33, 44, 48; II Chron. 6:34). Another passage supporting this rule is found in the Book of Daniel, which relates that in the upper chamber of the house, where Daniel prayed three times a day, the windows of which were opened toward Jerusalem (Dan. 6:10).
 
The Tosefta demands that the entrance to the synagogue should be on the eastern side with the congregation facing west. The requirement is probably based on the orientation of the tent of meeting, which had its gates on the eastern side (Num. 2:2–3; 3:38), or Solomon's Temple, the portals of which were to the east (Ezek. 43:1–4). Maimonides attempted to reconcile the Tosefta's provision with the requirement to pray toward Jerusalem by stating that the doors of the synagogue should face east, while the Ark should be placed "in the direction in which people pray in that city," i.e., toward Jerusalem. The Shulkhan Arukh records the same rule, but it also recommends that one turn toward the southeast instead of east to avoid the semblance of worshiping the sun.

[drfazl]

The Talmud lays down the rule that if one prays in the Diaspora, he shall direct himself toward the Land of Israel; in Israel, toward Jerusalem; in Jerusalem, toward the Temple; and in the Temple, toward the Holy of Holies. The same rule is found in the Mishnah; however, it is prescribed for individual prayers only rather than for congregational prayers at a synagogue. Thus, if a man is east of the Temple, he should turn westward; if in the west, eastward; in the south, northward; and if in the north, southward.
 

Prayer means returning and submitting to God, turning to Him alone; wherever you turn to there is His guidance; Your heart is the only viable place that is inviolable and the holiest of holies. Turning to the temples of brick works for prayers gives just devilish euphoria.
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