Author Topic: Science of Hadith  (Read 5366 times)

Sunnah-hero

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Science of Hadith
« on: February 16, 2012, 11:00:09 AM »
I feel this subject is of huge importance... first time i was here on freeminds i was filled with hate and ager towards the quraniyoon because they called themselves muslims when they have nothing to do with us real muslims.... and i used a lot of arguments which i can see now was stupid of me to use but i am very young and sometimes express myself in a inappropriate way.... but i have grown up and decided that we should, instead of making personal attacks on each other, begin with the essens of the issue which is hadith.. your problem is i believe in hadith and my problem is you dont believe in the hadith.... i've been reading many reasons for why quraniyooon reject hadith now i feel its my turn to explain why i believe in hadith... and inshallah that would open the eyes of sincere quraniyoon..

the key is SCIENCE OF HADITH.. e.g 100 people telling the same story, can that be false? even the police use the hadith science by asking as much people as possible and if they all give the same reply they consider the postulate as being a fact. Thats the same with hadith... 100 people who knew something about prophet sws all said the same thing thus it is foolish to not believe in it.. please check out this site http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
O People! Indeed, I have left among you, that which if you hold fast to it, you shall not go astray: The Book of Allah (Quran) and my Sunnah. (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

wasi

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2012, 12:06:56 PM »
39:23    الله نزل أحسن الحديث كتبا متشبها مثاني تقشعر منه جلود الذين يخشون ربهم ثم تلين جلودهم وقلوبهم إلى ذكر الله ذلك هدى الله يهدي به من يشاء ومن يضلل الله فما له من ها.
   
WASI

Abdul-Hadi

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2012, 12:13:09 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

17:36 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.

http://free-minds.org/refutations-against-sects

http://free-minds.org/does-hadith-have-solid-historical-basis

http://free-minds.org/hadith-question-authenticity

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

mmkhan

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 02:32:35 PM »

This may help inshaAllah.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597056.msg176807#msg176807


May Allah guide us all to His true path  :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51    إن الله ربي وربكم فاعبدوه هذا صرط مستقيم
3:51    Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him,

Paradox Uncreated

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 02:54:37 PM »
The police needs proof. Else ofcourse all idolaters and their friends would make up all kinds of shit.
And that is what hadith is. There is no science in it. Last time you were here you were unappropriate, and so were other people like you. And you argued, that you can have sex with disbelieving slaves, and other things. These things are hypocrisy, not Islam. In hadith Mohammed is stated to have allowed his men to rape slaves, because they were so far from home. In The Quran, promiscuity equals disbelief. Satan is the lustfollower. Godsconsiousness through prayer, blocks the spirit of satan.

What you are talking about is disbelief/satan/the feeblest of idiots. And you claim this is Islam? We should have you executed. Atleast in the future, work for sharia laws, and HARD PUNISHMENTS for disbelievers, and lustcultivators.

I remember you said without hijab, women were naked aswell.  That represents reduction of Islam to non-Islam, idiocy, and satan. On one of the mosques here, an idolaterous woman, who wanted attention, simply put on hijab, and went to the nearest mosque, knowing that white hijab-bearing women were worshipped there, and pigs giving here that attention were to be found there. Hijab makes no difference, and it is it an satanic object, claimed neccesary by God, it is simply a satan, and attracts only satan, who likes humans who defile themselves. More or less doesn`t matter. Uncomfortable hijabs, or a whore with ten years of prostitution is the same to him.

And that is what we see from people like you too. Your friends, not knowing satan, and their prayers in vain, immediately became lustfollowers here, thinking that women here were satans, and they could fool them, and have sex with them.

THAT is satan, not Islam. That these people call themselves muslim, is ofcourse a joke, and an offense to any decent REAL muslim, who follows the Quran.

Now that might not be everyone in this forum, as moderation unfortunately often is in the favor of intoxicant users and promiscuous, and gay. Which also all is satan.

So maybe I should just step back and let you people eat eachother or whatever the hell satans does these days.
Paradox Void is the infinitely superior.

Paradox Void is an attribute of God, or any other entity it should point to, which is the same entity.
Designer of all dimensions. Former of forms, shaper of shapes. According to truth.
Peace.

MesMorial

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 10:07:12 PM »
PART 1: Ahadith are not part of religion as presented by the Qur'an.



If your belief in God only comes from what other people tell you or want you to believe, it is not real belief. Sunnism, for example, can never be a real religion since it depends on accepting human opinions. Sunnism is Sunnism (i.e. it exists), but if it tries to be the real (compulsory) Islam, it will always be disappointed. If I have to accept something as part of my religion/spirituality, and it means accepting a human opinion (however “scholarly”), it ceases to be my belief and becomes something else. It is the main problem of indoctrination. People accept things as absolute Truth without them even being their own thoughts or perceptions. They will be unresponsive to logic or anything else which threatens their conditioning/programming.

Now if your belief is actually only faith in human opinion etc., how can you say it is “your” belief? You can say that someone is trustworthy as a matter-of-fact, but that is not the point. The point is that religion/spirituality must be a personal choice/experience. We die alone, and we are each responsible for our own soul. If we want to get closer to God, we cannot “tag along” on the back of another soul because that is not being responsible. Even if you follow a correct opinion, it is the very fact you put “faith” in that opinion which is the problem (i.e. you may have scored well in one area, but that was because you copied. It had nothing to do “with you”).

Now I am not going to say that my personal choice or experience is absolutely right, or that anyone else’s is wrong. However, I will say that someone who follows their own perception and uses their brain actually has a path. People who follow any proposal relying upon human opinion do not have their own path. If I accept the Qur’an as my source of religion, I do so because of my previous study. Obviously I will change my opinion if presented with adequate reason to. Sunnism is automatically disqualified since it knowingly relies on faith in human opinion.

God is God and humanity is humanity, and they can never mix to MAKE religion. Only on a personal level is there an interaction, since each person only has one soul (or consciousness for others). Where there are humans influencing humans towards absolutism, the path begins to criss-cross and go everywhere (except to God). This is why Sunnism has nothing to do with God, and why there is nothing Godly about it. If I ask anyone to prove without doubt a single hadith (authenticity and authority), and they cannot, I prove that it is not a part of religion.

Religion must be a product of individual perception and reason. Everything that is a part of religion must come from the mind and heart. External human opinion (no matter how “scholarly”) is never individual experience, thus it is irreligious. Faith is for God, for what is better and worse according to human minds and hearts. It is not for humans, or their opinions.

MesMorial

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 10:09:42 PM »
PART 2: The "isnad" system is rejected by the Qur'an, and is a man-made "religious" system based on human opinion.



The Sunni says: “If you deny ahadith, you deny the Qur’an because they come from the same people.”

Firstly, the primary hadith-collectors discarded over 99% of their original collection. Secondly, they could not have undertaken sufficient research using camels and dead people. Thirdly (and consequently), there is no evidence of their biographical research. Fourthly, it wouldn’t matter because the Qur’an says we must follow only the Qur’an. Fifthly, hadith-chains are by definition broken because the beginning does not meet the end (thus the “science of hadith” does not meet its own criterion). Sixthly, there is the most important point:

Religion is based on one’s own responsibility and acceptance.


“Say: If you see that it is from God, and you disbelieve it, who is in greater error…?”

Qur’an 41:52


Faith is about what you see, not what another human (whoever) sees or says. Nowhere does the Qur’an appeal to reliability of humans in assessing its value.


“And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then would the falsifiers doubt. Nay! these are signs clear in the breasts of those who are granted knowledge.”

Qur’an 29:4


The reception of the Qur’an is its own test. The word “nay” rejects the notion that people should look for external excuses (e.g. the Messenger’s personal activities) to reject the Book. The notion of looking to human reliability is thus refuted.


“And they say: Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: The signs are only with God, and I am just a plain warner.”

Qur’an 29:50


Any reason to accept the Qur’an will come from God.


“Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them?”

Qur’an 29:51


Again, the reception of the Qur’an is its own test. Comparing the information in the Qur’an with one’s knowledge/perception is the accepted method:


“We will soon show them Our signs in the universe and in their own souls, until it becomes quite clear to them that it is the truth.”

Qur’an 41:53


We must rely on our own knowledge/perceptions of our environment, as well as what we recognise as truth (e.g. morality) within ourselves.


“Do they not then reflect on the Qur’an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.”

Qur’an 47:24


“Say: O my Lord! increase me in knowledge.”

Qur’an 20:114


Religion must be an isnad (transmission-chain) consisting only of the individual and God. Placing faith in anything except the word of God and one’s intellect, experience and conclusions is the opposite of what the Qur’an tells us to do.


“In what hadith would they believe after God and His ayat?”

Qur’an 45:6


“And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.”

Qur’an 17:36


To say that we are required to seek religious knowledge from other humans is to set up intermediaries. Intermediaries require faith in humans, which is impossible in a religion. It ceases to be “Religion”, becoming “cult”.

The Sunni declares that to reject ahadith is to reject God’s word. Ahadith characters, narrators and recorders are not God; that they are written by the same people is an unproven assumption. The Sunni has religious faith in this unproven assumption, and then the nature of such ahadith must be proven (i.e. Qur’anic or un-Qur’anic). Did not the Prophet oversee the recording?

If the Qur’an were recorded accurately, it follows that as a Message to all (24:28, 42:7) it was widely distributed to many. If someone assumes (without logic or evidence) that it was not recorded accurately, there can certainly be no Sunni religion for that person. It just makes the sources of ahadith more unreliable. If the Qur’an were widely distributed, it follows that it was passed on by many and rendered difficult/impossible to change (confirmed by early manuscripts).

The Sunni argument is irrelevant, since God guaranteed the preservation of the Qur’an (15:9, 41:42). If the Sunni questions this, he/she questions the Qur’an. Without adequate logic or evidence, this is an isolated matter which can in no way validate “sunna”. A person can never provide 100% proof of God, and likewise a person can never provide 100% proof that the Qur’an is preserved. It is based upon an individual’s evaluation, especially given the absence of disproof.

“Qur’an-alone” Muslims accept the Qur’an based on the Qur’an and individual perception and knowledge. The Sunni accepts the Qur’an based on individual faith in scholars, recorders, narrators, hearsay and human opinion and action. The Sunni believes in God only because other people instruct him/her to. This God is the God of Sunnism, which is built from human hearsay, opinion and desire.

The God of Sunnism exists because of scholars, and thus scholars are the Sunni God. Sunnis must decide whether they accept the Qur’an (and thus verses 15:9 and 41:42), then reject Sunnism either way.

You cannot confirm something better with something weaker.

Student of Allah

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 04:24:58 AM »
I feel this subject is of huge importance... first time i was here on freeminds i was filled with hate and ager towards the quraniyoon because they called themselves muslims when they have nothing to do with us real muslims.... and i used a lot of arguments which i can see now was stupid of me to use but i am very young and sometimes express myself in a inappropriate way.... but i have grown up and decided that we should, instead of making personal attacks on each other, begin with the essens of the issue which is hadith.. your problem is i believe in hadith and my problem is you dont believe in the hadith.... i've been reading many reasons for why quraniyooon reject hadith now i feel its my turn to explain why i believe in hadith... and inshallah that would open the eyes of sincere quraniyoon..

the key is SCIENCE OF HADITH.. e.g 100 people telling the same story, can that be false? even the police use the hadith science by asking as much people as possible and if they all give the same reply they consider the postulate as being a fact. Thats the same with hadith... 100 people who knew something about prophet sws all said the same thing thus it is foolish to not believe in it.. please check out this site http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/

Shalom Aleikhem,

This is the first post of you that I actually like and respect. This is the attitude you should take. Be nice, and give reason for what you believe and ask for reasons for other's beliefs.

Now... coming to your reasoning. If you ever visit india, just go around asking people if Durga is Goddess. I am pretty sure you will find nearly billion people testifying that they bear witness that Durga is a Goddess. Will you accept that hadith then ? If not, then why ? I would reject hadiths for similar reasons. Lots of people confirming a narration only shows that this is the dominant view , not necessarily the correct view.

I hope you understand why I disagreed. I tried to give example to show that I dont simply disagree just because its hadith. But for good reasons.

May God guide you to His straight path :)

Peace
---------- Student of Allah

tlihawa

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 06:58:55 AM »
PART 2: The "isnad" system is rejected by the Qur'an, and is a man-made "religious" system based on human opinion.

The Sunni says: “If you deny ahadith, you deny the Qur’an because they come from the same people.”

I think it's a different thing. Please take a look at this verse:

35:32  Then We inherited the Book to those whom We selected from Our servants. Subsequently, some of them wronged themselves, and others upheld it partly, while others were eager to work righteousness in accordance with the will of God; such is the great benefit.

Al Quran came to us from selected people (God's servants). But some of them wronged themselves. But even so, we did not rejected the Quran which coming from the 'selected people who wronged themselves'. It's different than ahadith which easy to labelled as 'dhaif' or fake and then got eliminated. Because it's not our responsibility to filter Allah words. Allah will take care of it.

What about the ahadith? :-\


hope4

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Re: Science of Hadith
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 11:27:34 AM »
It was narrated from Abu Sa'eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that." (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa'l-Raqaa'iq, 5326) 

Knowledge is understanding that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.