General Issues / Questions > Prophets and Messengers
difference between rasoel and nabi
Bender:
--- Quote from: truthseeker171 on January 05, 2012, 01:02:01 AM ---Peace Bender
Following quote from http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602264.0 might be interesting to you.
The subject is the possibility of human messengers after Mohammad.
--- End quote ---
Salaam truthseeker171
I've read your article. Nice read, I agree with a lot and also there are some things in which I do not agree.
Just a consideration for you, you had 9 points in that thread, I believe That every point you made is worth a thread in it self, they are all very interesting. Maybe If you make from every point a thread then we can discuss them 1 by 1.
--- Quote ---quote
Verse 57:25 - We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice.-
This verse alone is sufficient koranic proof that there where no new messengers after the prophet Mohammad. According to this verse – human messengers bring a scripture and law – with the permission of God.
No man or woman after the life-time of Mohammad has brought mankind a new scripture and a new -sharia-, that was sent down truly in the name of God.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for posting this verse, actually I was hoping that someone would post this verse. I am aware of this verse and it had me puzzled for some days and I am still not very sure if my understanding is correct.
I do not agree that this verse is a proof that there will be no other messengers after Mohammed.
I believe we have to read this verse in 4 steps like this:
57:25 We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the Book and the balance, so that the people may uphold justice. And We sent down The Hadid, wherein there is great strength, and many benefits for the people. So that God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers in the unseen. God is Powerful, Noble.
The rasoels are SENT with AL Bayinati.
And ANZALA with them The Book and The Mizan.
I believe that if rasoels were sent with The Proofs AND The Book AND The Balance, THEN the verse would be something like this: “We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs AND the Book AND The Balance…” I hope you understand what I mean. Please also read my first post were Musa was sent without a Book to Pharao.
What actually puzzles me is this part “…We sent down (ANZALA) with them the Book and The Mizan…”.
I always thought anzala means “sent down” like “anzala from the sky water” but I don’t think this is correct.
Because if it means "sent down" then the rasoels and the nabies (2:213) were also somewhere on the same height as the object which is sent down with them, because of “ANZALA with them”. Please compare with 20:1-2 there it is “Anzala on you” not “with you”.
I believe it’s important to have a good definition for “nazala” to understand the verses where this is mentioned better.
--- Quote ---People who accept extra messengers, try to diminish consciously or unconsciously the function of a messenger, in contrast with the koranic meaning of the word.
They say that a messenger is just a confirmer of a previous scripture and that only prophets can bring a religion. The Koran does not acknowledge such a difference between a messenger and a prophet. Verse 3:39 clearly states that the prophet John is a confirmer of the word from God. So a prophet can be a confirmer as well.
--- End quote ---
I believe that they were all confirmers. Because if there was someone who did bring an other religion then it could never be from Allah. I believe that only there can be some “new” laws but never an other religion.
--- Quote ---The Koran describes the functions of a messenger and a prophet and their differences in another way.
Solomon as a prophet had a limited function for his people compared to the messenger-prophet Moses, Moses gave his people the religion and Solomon was a follower of this religion, as far as we can know.
Messenger-prophets had always a more comprehensive task than prophets. So messengership is a task far greater than only a confirmer.[/color]
--- End quote ---
I agree, because the word rasoel-nabi in it self contains 2 “jobs”. But I don’t now what task is harder rasoel or nabi.
--- Quote ---According to the verses 9:33 and 61:9 the messenger of God is a bringer of guidance and the religion of truth.
Verse 57:25 states that messengers have with them the scripture and the law.
Verse 6:90 mentions that also the prophets have a guidance for the people to follow, verse 6:89 states that this guidance is through a book.
The bringing of a religion of truth and the law is only mentioned together with messengership
and not with prophethood alone. This implies that the duty of a messenger is more comprehensive than that of a prophet. Both have a guidance to convey, but a messenger is also a bringer of a religion of truth and the law – a new form of the religion for a people, a new sharia.
According to verse 3:50 the messenger can also convey a change of an existing sharia.
--- End quote ---
I think you have to be careful to not generalize. If a verse says something like this: “Allah messengers brings guidance…”. This doesn’t mean that all messengers bring guidance. I believe it’s only talking about a specific messenger and not all the messengers.
An other thing to note, I believe if there is a verse like this (like in 6:89): “…The Book AND The Hikma AND The Prophethood…” this does not mean that a prophet comes with The Book AND The Hikma. Actually I believe this shows that Book, Hikma an Prophethood are 3 different things.
--- Quote ---So the messenger-prophet can convey a new forms of the religion via the guidance of a book as seen with the Torah - verse 6:184 and the Koran - verse 2:185, or the messenger-prophet can give a sharia-change - verse 3:50.
--- End quote ---
Wow you have to borrow me your Quran :D What verse do you mean?
I don't think that there is in 2:185 some new law, if you mean fasting then please read 2:183
I agree with you on 3:50. But does this mean that all messenger-prophet bring a new law? I really don't know. Thank you for showing this to me, nice thing to study :)
--- Quote ---According to the Koran there a three different types of Divine scriptures:1. A scripture of the messenger-prophet.
This book has the law in it – the sharia, in the book are also prophetic non-sharia issues.
An example is the scripture that the messenger-prophet Mohammad brought.
2. A scripture of the prophet who is not a messenger as well.
This book has no sharia-rulings in it and has only verses that are related to other issues than the religious rulings.
An example is the scripture that the prophet Solomon brought.
3. A scripture of the messenger who is not a prophet as well.
This book consists only of the law - the sharia, there are no verses related to subjects other than the sharia.
An example is the scripture that the messenger Hud brought.
--- End quote ---
Acttualy I was planning to study this in the near future inshaAllah. At the moment I know very little about this, thus I can't talk about it.
Thank you truthseeker171 for you time and effort, please don't be offended in things where we don't agree. In the end we all want inshaAllah to understand better.
Salaam and may Allah increase us in our knowledge,
Bender
Bender:
Salaam,
Just a reminder, this thread is not about a particular messenger or nabi or about someones messengership.
Thank you and salamu alaikum,
Bender
Bender:
Salaam,
I saw that I wrote this:
I think you have to be careful to not generalize. If a verse says something like this: “Allah messengers brings guidance…”. This doesn’t mean that all messengers bring guidance. I believe it’s only talking about a specific messenger and not all the messengers.
Of course I meant this: I think you have to be careful to not generalize. If a verse says something like this: “Allah messengers messenger brings guidance…”. This doesn’t mean that all messengers bring guidance. I believe it’s only talking about a specific messenger and not all the messengers.
truthseeker171:
Salaam Bender
--- Quote from: Bender on January 06, 2012, 10:17:11 AM ---
I do not agree that this verse is a proof that there will be no other messengers after Mohammed.
I believe we have to read this verse in 4 steps like this:
57:25 We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the Book and the balance, so that the people may uphold justice. And We sent down The Hadid, wherein there is great strength, and many benefits for the people. So that God would distinguish those who would support Him and His messengers in the unseen. God is Powerful, Noble.
The rasoels are SENT with AL Bayinati.
And ANZALA with them The Book and The Mizan.
I believe that if rasoels were sent with The Proofs AND The Book AND The Balance, THEN the verse would be something like this: “We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs AND the Book AND The Balance…” I hope you understand what I mean. Please also read my first post were Musa was sent without a Book to Pharao.
What actually puzzles me is this part “…We sent down (ANZALA) with them the Book and The Mizan…”.
I always thought anzala means “sent down” like “anzala from the sky water” but I don’t think this is correct.
Because if it means "sent down" then the rasoels and the nabies (2:213) were also somewhere on the same height as the object which is sent down with them, because of “ANZALA with them”. Please compare with 20:1-2 there it is “Anzala on you” not “with you”.
I believe it’s important to have a good definition for “nazala” to understand the verses where this is mentioned better.
I believe that they were all confirmers. Because if there was someone who did bring an other religion then it could never be from Allah. I believe that only there can be some “new” laws but never an other religion.
--- End quote ---
- In my opinion verse 57:25 proofs that until now there has not been a human-messenger after Mohammad. Since no person came with a book and a sharia in a by God authorized way. I agree that this verse does not rule out the possibility.
- I believe that souls can come from high places as well, I believe that (a part of the) souls lived before the incarnation on earth.
The messenger can be sent down - the book and the scale as well.
The messenger can be sent down and sent to his people with the message.
--- Quote from: Bender on January 06, 2012, 10:17:11 AM ---I think you have to be careful to not generalize. If a verse says something like this: “Allah messengers brings guidance…”. This doesn’t mean that all messengers bring guidance. I believe it’s only talking about a specific messenger and not all the messengers.
--- End quote ---
This is a good point - but I do not see any evidence in the Koran that suggests that there ever has been a human-messenger without a -guidance- to give.
As in verse 57:25, the messengers have a book, a scale (sharia) to guide the people so that the people may uphold justice, this is a form of guidance.
--- Quote from: Bender on January 06, 2012, 10:17:11 AM ---Wow you have to borrow me your Quran :D What verse do you mean?
I don't think that there is in 2:185 some new law, if you mean fasting then please read 2:183
I agree with you on 3:50. But does this mean that all messenger-prophet bring a new law? I really don't know. Thank you for showing this to me, nice thing to study :)
--- End quote ---
- thank you for finding this typo - the verse is 6:154.
- 2:185 states that the Koran is -hudan- and -furqan-. This is in general, not only referring to the fast. The Koran is a guidance and criterion.
To remember or celebrate this event of sending down - the fasting-days are prescribed.
- verse 57:25 seems to state that the human-messenger in general brought a book including a sharia or a sharia-change.
Greetings,
Truthseeker
Bender:
--- Quote from: truthseeker171 on January 07, 2012, 06:24:51 AM ---Salaam Bender
--- End quote ---
Salaam truthseeker171
--- Quote ---- In my opinion verse 57:25 proofs that until now there has not been a human-messenger after Mohammad. Since no person came with a book and a sharia in a by God authorized way. I agree that this verse does not rule out the possibility.
--- End quote ---
I think you mean: no human-messenger came after Muhammed with something other then The Quran.
--- Quote ---- I believe that souls can come from high places as well, I believe that (a part of the) souls lived before the incarnation on earth.
The messenger can be sent down - the book and the scale as well.
The messenger can be sent down and sent to his people with the message.
--- End quote ---
I have no idea at the moment about this. But I believe that if this is true then we have to find evidence for it in The Quran. I haven't searched for this yet, so at the moment I can't say anything about it.
--- Quote ---This is a good point - but I do not see any evidence in the Koran that suggests that there ever has been a human-messenger without a -guidance- to give.
As in verse 57:25, the messengers have a book, a scale (sharia) to guide the people so that the people may uphold justice, this is a form of guidance.
--- End quote ---
Please read the story of Moses. He was sent to Pharao without a book, he was only sent with "albayinaat". Ofcourse later when Farao was drowned, he was given the book, but when he went for the first time to him, he had no book, yet he was already there called a messenger of The Lord of the Worlds. This is why I believe we have to read 57:25 in parts/stages.
--- Quote ---- 2:185 states that the Koran is -hudan- and -furqan-. This is in general, not only referring to the fast. The Koran is a guidance and criterion.
To remember or celebrate this event of sending down - the fasting-days are prescribed.
--- End quote ---
But I'm not sure if this means that are some new laws in The Quran. It's nice to study what new law(s) are in the Quran ( thus different from a previous "scripture"). If I remember correctly then it always says that it is confirming the previous scripture's, but this is only what I think at the moment, I haven't studied this carefully. Thus please correct me with a Quran verse which describes a new law.
Salaam,
Bender
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