Author Topic: Should I defend St. Paul ?  (Read 1150 times)

Student of Allah

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Should I defend St. Paul ?
« on: December 29, 2011, 08:11:25 PM »
Shalom Aleikhom,

My understanding is that the Christianity we see is the deen of Paul. But upon reading his works (attributed to him atleast) twice, I come to a different conclusion. Did Paul claim to be inspired ? His writings say otherwise, let me share some with you and you educate me why I am wrong or right:

You dont need to read all of it (although you may) since the context is not important, focus on the RED parts to understand the author's psychology and understanding of his own words.

1 Corinthians 7 KJV

10: And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12: But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

What does this tell you about the author ? The person is completely aware of what is inspired and what is "opinion".

25: Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

40: But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

Galatians 5

2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Now, considering the highlighted red parts ( There may be many more), what is your opinion about them ? I get confused by the missionaries and ordinary believers in Christ about Paul. They say that Paul was inspired, but Paul writes saying that he is writing his opinions, so how can all his words be inspired ? Which kind of indicates that he himself never understood all his words to be inspired (if you consider the highlighted red parts above).

What do you think ? If you were a christian before, or are now one, how do you understand it ?

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

Student of Allah

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2011, 08:24:08 PM »
Shalom Aleikhom,

Some more information to defend Paul (since he was not consulted before we compiled his letter).

Just what the hell is this ? Notice that Paul is clearly indicating NON-INSPIRATION:

1 Corinthians 1

14: I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15: Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16: And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

So, Paul starts off saying that he only baptized 2, then he remembers that he actually baptized another group of people , finally he comes to conclusion that there are many more which he may not even remember. Is this GOD INSPIRATION ??? Really ?? Or an old man trying to be "holy" in his writing ? Could Paul be crazy enough to attribute all these to God ?

If you look at the whole thing, Paul (or whoever is the author) was himself aware and presenting his case as "opinions". Could he have attributed such lack of knowledge about matters like the ones quoted above to God ??? I mean, can you say that you are inspired of God when writing something and then end up demonstrating your lack of knowledge and finally declare that its out of your league to even try and remember ?

Unless ofcourse if Paul understood INSPIRATION to be something different. (Which would ofcourse contradict the story he pointed out about the light flashing, him falling down etc).

PEACE
------------- Student of Allah


Bigmo

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2012, 04:58:38 AM »
Shalom Aleikhom,

My understanding is that the Christianity we see is the deen of Paul. But upon reading his works (attributed to him atleast) twice, I come to a different conclusion. Did Paul claim to be inspired ? His writings say otherwise, let me share some with you and you educate me why I am wrong or right:

You dont need to read all of it (although you may) since the context is not important, focus on the RED parts to understand the author's psychology and understanding of his own words.

1 Corinthians 7 KJV

10: And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12: But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

What does this tell you about the author ? The person is completely aware of what is inspired and what is "opinion".

25: Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

40: But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

Galatians 5

2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Now, considering the highlighted red parts ( There may be many more), what is your opinion about them ? I get confused by the missionaries and ordinary believers in Christ about Paul. They say that Paul was inspired, but Paul writes saying that he is writing his opinions, so how can all his words be inspired ? Which kind of indicates that he himself never understood all his words to be inspired (if you consider the highlighted red parts above).

What do you think ? If you were a christian before, or are now one, how do you understand it ?

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

Jesus's divinity argument is not attributed to Paul exclusively. Paul focused on the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Being a Pharisee he struggled (as do many of us from a Judaic and Islamic background) with the issue of legalism. Which he called the Law.

References to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
 
The earliest known depiction of the Trinity, Dogmatic Sarcophagus, 350 AD[29] Vatican Museums.
Some biblical verses specifically reference the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct entities in a single narrative. While trinitarians interpret these passages as support for the notion of a Trinity, because these verses speak of distinct entities mentioned by name, and not of a Trinity, non-trinitarians also appeal to these verses in support of their argument that a Trinity was not envisioned at the time of their authorship.
 "As soon as Jesus Christ was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and landing on him. And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'"[Mt 3:16–17] [Mk 1:10–11] [Luke 3:22] [John 1:32]
 "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.'"[Luke 1:35]
 "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"[Heb 9:14]
 "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God." [Acts 7:55]
 The eighth chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans, which contains many complex formulations of the relationship between God, Christ, and Spirit, including "the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead,"[Rom 8:11] "all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God,"[8:14-17] and "the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."[8:26-27]
 
Some verses also reference the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as part of a single formula, which trinitarians view as support of a Trinity, though not explicitly stated. Non-trinitarians argue that because these verses are conclusions to their respective books, they may be later trinitarian formulaic additions to the original works, which were added after the doctrine of the Trinity had begun to be debated and accepted as dogmatic.[30]
 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"[Mt 28:19] (see Trinitarian formula). It has been claimed that writings of Eusebius show the mention of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to have displaced a request by Jesus that his disciples baptize people in his name.[31] However, all extant manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew unanimously contain the trinitarian baptismal formula without variation at 28:19.[32]
 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."[2

As opposed to the Synoptic Gospels, the Gospel of John has been seen as aimed at emphasizing Jesus' divinity, presenting Jesus as the Logos, pre-existent and divine, from its first words, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."[John 1:1][37] John also portrays Jesus as the creator of the universe, such that "without him was not any thing made that was made."[John 1:3] Some render John 1:1 as "the Word was a god", "the word was godlike", "the word was divine", denying that the doctrine of the Trinity is supported by the verse.
 
The Gospel of John ends with Thomas's apparent confession of faith to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"[John 20:28][21] There is no significant tendency among modern scholars to deny that John 1:1 and John 20:28 identify Jesus with God.[38]
 
Other passages of John's Gospel interpreted in this sense include, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.",[8:58] "I and the Father are one.",[10:30] "....the Father is in me and I am in the Father.",[10:38][39] and "....he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."[John 5:18] John is also seen to identify Jesus as the Lord whom Isaiah saw,[John 12:34-45][Isa 6:1-10] while other texts[Heb 1:1-12] are also understood as referring to Jesus as God.[40][41][42]
 
There are also a few possible biblical supports for the Trinity found in the Synoptic Gospels. The Gospel of Matthew, for example, quotes Jesus as saying, "all things have been handed over to me by my Father".[Mt 11:27] This is similar to John, who wrote that Jesus said, "All that the Father has is mine".[John 16:15] These verses have been quoted to defend the omnipotence of Christ, having all power, as well as the omniscience of Christ, having all wisdom.
 
Expressions also in the Pauline epistles have been interpreted as attributing divinity to Jesus. They include: "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him"[Colossians 1:16] and "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form",[Colossians 2:9] and in Paul the Apostle's claim to have been "sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father".[Galatians 1:1][43]

The first of the early church fathers recorded as using the word Trinity was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late second century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)[63] in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation. The first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early third century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended the Trinitarian theology against the "Praxean" heresy.[64]
 
Although there is much debate as to whether the beliefs of the Apostles were merely articulated and explained in the Trinitarian Creeds,[65] or were corrupted and replaced with new beliefs,[66][67] all scholars recognize that the Creeds themselves were created in reaction to disagreements over the nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These controversies, however, were great and many, and took some centuries to be resolved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

Magnus

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2012, 05:20:16 AM »
Student of Allah: exactly what about Paul are you contemplating defending, and from whom?
(even if he didn't claim divine authority, he doesn't exactly come across as a rightly guided monotheist if you catch my drift)
it has not been inspired to me that I am a messenger

farida

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 11:49:30 AM »
Student of Allah: exactly what about Paul are you contemplating defending, and from whom?
(even if he didn't claim divine authority, he doesn't exactly come across as a rightly guided monotheist if you catch my drift)
There is a trend at the moment to support Christanity at the expence of Islam and there are many trendy people on this forum.
 :yes

huruf

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 01:00:54 PM »
A trend or fashion. I have already seen several times put a defence of hijab by muslims bringing in Saint Paul and his arguments. Really funny.

Salaam

Student of Allah

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2012, 01:16:57 PM »
Student of Allah: exactly what about Paul are you contemplating defending, and from whom?
(even if he didn't claim divine authority, he doesn't exactly come across as a rightly guided monotheist if you catch my drift)

Shalom aleikhem,

Well Muslims in general , if not others aswell, say that Paul made up Christianity. From these verses I presented, it looks as though he was making it clear that its "his" understanding and "his" idea. Not divine. So, I was asking myself if I should defend Paul.

Peace
------------ Student of Allah

Student of Allah

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2012, 01:22:26 PM »
A trend or fashion. I have already seen several times put a defence of hijab by muslims bringing in Saint Paul and his arguments. Really funny.

Salaam

Shalom Aleikhem,

ya.. "The women that does not cover her hair...shave it off.."lol... muslims try their level best to show Christians that really...they arent less derailed than who they are inviting to their system. Apparently, according to these Hijab defenders, Paul had better sense of modesty than the author of Qur'an ;P
 

Peace
---------- Student of Allah

MaverickMonotheist

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2012, 01:30:29 PM »
Peace Student of Allah,

Paul was very crafty in his word choice and careful how he said things.  For instance, in his letter to Philemon's owner, he never comes out and says that slavery is bad, yet he appeals to every possible argument and even comes out and says, "You owe it to me to do this favor and let him go so I can use him for my ministry."  So, just because he says something is his judgement, does not mean that he expected them to consider it optional.

Besides, Paul's credibility is shaky at best.  Why would a "Pharisee of Pharisees" work for the Sadducean High Priest?  The Sadducean High Priest Alexander Janneus crucified 800 Pharisees and had the throats cut of their wives and children while they were hanged on the crosses in front of their eyes.  This was a few hundred years before Paul, but the Pharisees never forgot.  So the suggestion that he was a partner with the sect and office responsible for the slaughter of many of his sect is not logical.  Also, his rhetorical methods violate a few points of rabbinical logic, something that someone "schooled at the feet of Gamaliel" would never do.  I personally think he was a con man.

Peace,
Joel

Bigmo

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Re: Should I defend St. Paul ?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2012, 11:35:29 PM »
There is a trend at the moment to support Christanity at the expence of Islam and there are many trendy people on this forum.
 :yes

There is nothing called Christianity and Islam for me. There is Koran and Gospel. You probably was raised a MUslim amd may still see yourself as part of that community. The important part here is scriptures since it is the scriptures that gives us information. Paul  never claimed Jesus was God and never did he ever say that God is a Trinity. So Paul was consistent in his teachings with the Koran. Paul to me is a great man who made enormous sacrifice and was one of the few men that God gave the burden of spreading Jesus's message.

2 Corinthians 11

24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? 30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.


Paul was great!  :hail Notice he said the God and Father of Jesus. Paul would never claim Jesus was Divine. The Christians who say this rely on implicit verses and take things out of context as the Koran says.
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe