RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?

[good logic]

Peace Student of Allah.

I believe , when many initial chapters mentioned that the letters are a " proof" /"Sign"of the scripture. That there must be proof/ sign.

GOD also talks about HIS messengers, they bring the proof with HIS authorisation?


Hence if a messenger comes after Muhammed, this proof will be shown?

I was asking you the questions, in light of your earlier reply.

I also believe that " Rashad" was the one chosen at the right time to deliver this proof.

"Rashad was a human being who made mistakes, which is irrelevant since GOD wants us to follow only HIS word. The proof will serve as clarification of what is the word of GOD,

The test after that is GOD s alone , HE is the only judge.

Peace.

[Student of Allah]

Peace Student of Allah.

I believe , when many initial chapters mentioned that the letters are a " proof" /"Sign"of the scripture. That there must be proof/ sign.

GOD also talks about HIS messengers, they bring the proof with HIS authorisation?


Hence if a messenger comes after Muhammed, this proof will be shown?

I was asking you the questions, in light of your earlier reply.

I also believe that " Rashad" was the one chosen at the right time to deliver this proof.

"Rashad was a human being who made mistakes, which is irrelevant since GOD wants us to follow only HIS word. The proof will serve as clarification of what is the word of GOD,

The test after that is GOD s alone , HE is the only judge.

Peace.

Shalom Aleikhem,

Thank you very much for sharing your view. My current view on 3:81 would be more like:
1. Gabriel is the one
2. Muhammad is the one

However, I must inform you that the second option is filled with alot of unsolved issues. I just kept it as a consideration, the share between these 2 views would be Gabriel(99.99999999%) and Muhammad (0.00000001%). One can totally ignore Muhammad from my list.

Dont get me wrong, I do understand that messengers are people like you and me. However, what I do not expect them to do is to preach falsehood and non-Qur'anic materials. They may or may not have opinions like we do, but we do not go around preaching our opinions in the name of God.

Just as I wouldn't expect Moses to build a dummy calf in support of the inclinations of the jews and preach them to take it as a symbol of God, I would not expect a messenger to preach falsehood.

Anyways, those are my views. You are entitled to your views. As long as we have it in us to become a better person, inshallah, we will meet in paradise.

Peace
-------------- Student of Allah 

[good logic]

Peace Student of Allah.
Thank you for that. Please allow me to explain my view further:

As far as I understand from Koran, God does not send " Gabriel" to a group / community as messenger ( 21:7, 21:8,...)

God may communicate with prophet/ messenger/ individuals through " Angel" ...

Also : 23:66, 23:67, 23:69,... 54:2,... Indicates that some proof is going to be shown in the future after "Muhammed" ( The future belongs to GOD, so wait, We are also waiting...)

Of course I respect your views.  I did not mean any negatives apart from progressing our knowledge.

The aim of debate / discussion is not victory but progress.

May the Lord guide all those who seek HIM Alone.
Peace.

[ayman]

As far as I understand from Koran, God does not send " Gabriel" to a group / community as messenger ( 21:7, 21:8,...)

Please show where in 3:81 it says anything about a community. The passage talks about a messenger who gets sent to each prophet.

God may communicate with prophet/ messenger/ individuals through " Angel" ...

Indeed, the god communicates the message to each prophet through Gabriel, not through some future "messenger" who somehow talks to the now long dead prophets who are supposed to support him while they are dead!

[good logic]

Peace ayman.

3:81 Says a messenger " confirming the message sent with these prophets"; It is a messenger ( human) to the people with the same message ( The message is inviting to GOD Alone?)

Also " The prophets will be witnesses" to this messenger . And as you know each prophet/messenger will be a witness on the day of judgement.

Peace

[ayman]

3:81 Says a messenger " confirming the message sent with these prophets"; It is a messenger ( human) to the people with the same message ( The message is inviting to GOD Alone?)

Please quote 3:81 and underline where it says to the people. The passage clearly says that this is a messenger to the prophets. Who is the only messenger who came to all the prophets? There is absolutely no doubt that it is Gabriel.

Also " The prophets will be witnesses" to this messenger . And as you know each prophet/messenger will be a witness on the day of judgement.

The prophets can only witness on the day of judgment about what happened when they were alive. So for example, Mohamed cannot witness about Pharoah's people while Moses would. Also, the passage doesn't only talk about witnessing. It talks about having faith and supporting this messenger. Surely, having faith and supporting him can only happen during each prophet's live and not after they have been dead for centuries! Again, there is absolutely no doubt that this messenger who comes to the prophets and they witness and believe in him and support him while they are alive can ONLY be Gabriel.

Peace,

Ayman

[good logic]

Peace ayman.

It does not make sense " Support Gabriel". Throughout the Koran GOD only asks us to support each other or a prophet/ messenger.

Many verses of the Koran indicate some proof/ sign/miracle will come after Muhammed. You are familiar with them in your past debates/discussions with others.eg (" ... the future belongs to GOD, say :" wait... "also 23:66-- 70 and so on...)

You are also familiar with 54:1, 54:2,... Verses Specific for this generation and future generations ( Technology generation!)

It seems we have a different understanding of 3:81.

I have no doubt in my mind that it means a messenger after Muhammed in the context of all the other verses in the Koran.

Please read my past posts on this topic, they will give you a good idea of what I believe.

May GOD guide us to HIS truth.
Peace

[Mazhar]

Rashad Khalifa was a Human Messenger , and we know directly from the Quran that human messengers err and make mistakes.
The Quran emphasises that Human messengers are not infallible, and that they are apt to make mistakes just like anyone else. Many examples are given in the Quran for specific mistakes committed by various messengers and prophets. We note that Muhammad is reprimanded in the Quran six times for mistakes he committed. Mistakes for other messengers include Moses killing an innocent man, Jonah abandoning God's mission, Solomon forgetting his prayer, Joseph (when he was in prison) putting his trust and fate in the ruler's hand when he should have remembered that God is the Only One to decide his fate.

Now, Rashad was to say vehement about his idealogy of following the Quran alone. Even in one of his videos(big debate), he stated that [n] "If i tell you to do anything that is not in the Quran, DO NOT DO IT!" [/b]Thus Rashad's message, is what should be followed, not his human self!

Qur'aan alone is the criteria. Does it say anywhere to literally follow anyone except the One Messenger?

Allah the Exalted now "loves" people only conditionally

You, the Messenger, [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, for believers] pronounce-guarantee, "If you people love Allah the Exalted, thereby to demonstrate and prove it you incline to follow me, in letter and spirit, without in between third party intervention-influence.
Allah the Exalted will in response-reciprocally love-appreciate and acknowledge act of you people.
Moreover, He the Exalted will overlook and grant forgiveness for you people for your earlier wrong-doings.
Remember, Allah the Exalted is The Forgiving-Overlooking and The Merciful". [3:31]

Those who think they follow Qur'aan because of Rashad, they deny the above Ayah, thereby they just deceive their selves by thinking they are Qur'aan alone people.

[good logic]

Peace Mazhar.

 The believers follow all the true messengers, including Muhammed, We make no distinction between any of GOD s messengers.

They all brought the same message ( They called to GOD Alone!). Submission and total loyalty to GOD Alone.

Also when we say [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, ] we will not be able to help and support him because he is dead. We are saying something that does not make sense and we may also be distinguishing Muhammed from other prophets/ messengers.

Peace

[Mazhar]

Peace Mazhar.

 The believers follow all the true messengers, including Muhammed, We make no distinction between any of GOD s messengers.

They all brought the same message ( They called to GOD Alone!). Submission and total loyalty to GOD Alone.

Also when we say [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, ] we will not be able to help and support him because he is dead. We are saying something that does not make sense and we may also be distinguishing Muhammed from other prophets/ messengers.

Peace

You may ignore my saying "Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam" and attend to the Verdict pronounced by Allah the Exalted. Arent you included amongst those whom it is addressed?