Author Topic: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?  (Read 4574 times)

Student of Allah

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2012, 07:32:17 PM »
Well ayman, as i would see it, the devil interferes with every messenger and prophet as per 22:52
The devil puts something in the wants of every messenger and prophet.

I believe in the notion of following the Quran alone,

Rashad's message was to basically follow the Quran alone.
Even in his great debate video, Rashad Himself stated something like "If i tell you to do anything that is not in the Quran, DO NOT DO IT!"

Rashad might have advocated the 2.5% charity etc, however, that might just be how the devil interfered with his wishes, by puting traditions into his message of follow the Quran alone.

Can you tell me anyone before rashad who had the message of following the Quran alone?

i would believe in the message of Rashad, which was to basically follow the Quran alone.
i wouldn't believe in his faults, and addendums as the 2.5% charity.
Rashad was a human he made mistakes.

This would be the topic of the original post,
follow rashad, or his message?  i.e follow Quran alone or his 2.5% charity  etc

Shalom Aleikhem,

I agree with Ayman on this one. You are addressing the issue very vaguely. Not the normal vagueness, but the politician one. Where you are ignoring alot to sound as acceptable as you can be from both sides.

How can you accept a conclusion which strictly is derived  from and based on pre-stated premises that you reject ???  in other words, how do you accept a person's messengership which is based on something you reject ????

If your answer is that "one of all the things Rashad said is follow Qur'an alone", well then this website is filled with such messengers too.

Peace

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youssef4342

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2012, 10:18:06 AM »
Peace be upon you as well,

I believe in the Message of Rashad of following the Quran alone. This is how i found out about following the Quran alone.
Now I don't believe in Rashad's other teachings, such as the 2.5% charity, because it is not from the Quran, and thus, not following the Quran alone.
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Bahman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2012, 10:18:35 AM »
Are you saying that the devil made him remove 9:128-129? His claim of messengership was primarily based on him being tasked with purifying the message by removing 9:128-129. So this means that his primary claim of messengership is from the devil.

I had personally rejected Hadiths and was trying to follow the great reading alone long before I heard about Khalifa and I know others who are the same. Do you really believe that this is something so unique? It is common sense. There is a big difference between the great reading and Hadiths. Anyone with half a brain who studies Hadiths would reject them and follow the great reading alone.

You are ignoring Khalifa's own claim of his primary role as a messenger coming to purify by removing 9:128-129, which is the basis of his of messengership and hence the topic. This is why you are evasive and can't address the 70 facts that Khalifa presented in his Appendix 24. You can continue to be evasive if you like but your heart will continue to harbor doubt about those 70 facts. It is best that you face reality head on courageously. Don't worry what is the worse that can happen? :)

Peace,

Ayman
Peace Ayaman
1-What is you understanding ?
2- please correct this and explain if such report is Hadith too.?
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 [see Insert 1].
3-Is this Lie too and considered Hadith? 
The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" [see `ULUM AL-QURAN, by Ahmad von Denffer, Islamic Foundation, Leicester, United Kingdom, 1983, Page 56.]. The question an intelligent person must ask is: "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"
Peace

ayman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2012, 07:15:48 PM »
Peace dear Bahman,

1-What is you understanding ?

My understanding is that it has nothing to do with the so-called initials but it has to do with the signs being in the message of what is being recited. The same exact word "ayat" is also used at the beginning of Chapter 24 in 24:1 to similarly point to what is being said despite Chapter 24 not having any so-called initials.

024.001
YUSUFALI: A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.
PICKTHAL: (Here is) a surah which We have revealed and enjoined, and wherein We have revealed plain tokens, that haply ye may take heed.
SHAKIR: (This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.
KHALIFA: A sura that we have sent down, and we have decreed as law. We have revealed in it clear revelations, that you may take heed.


2- please correct this and explain if such report is Hadith too.?
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 [see Insert 1].

It is a Hadith. Need I say more?? Anyway, here is an accurate translation of the Hadith itself:

Ali stayed at home. He was asked: "What made you stay?" He said, "I saw the god’s book being added to so I told myself I will not put my clothes except for prayer, until I collect it."

As you may notice, the Hadith is actually ridiculous and doesn’t make much sense.

Here is Khalifa’s translation of the Hadith to make it sound a little more serious:

`Ali was asked: "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."

How does Ali sitting around the house naked help anything is just one of the many absurdities of this Hadith.

3-Is this Lie too and considered Hadith? 
The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" [see `ULUM AL-QURAN, by Ahmad von Denffer, Islamic Foundation, Leicester, United Kingdom, 1983, Page 56.]. The question an intelligent person must ask is: "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"

How many times has this original Quran been destroyed/burned? Didn’t another guy supposedly named Uthman allegedly do the same exact thing years earlier? A lie is getting recycled.

Peace,

Ayman

Student of Allah

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2012, 07:33:55 PM »
Shalom Aleikhem,

Off-topic alert !!



Ali stayed at home. He was asked: "What made you stay?" He said, "I saw the god’s book being added to so I told myself I will not put my clothes except for prayer, until I collect it."

As you may notice, the Hadith is actually ridiculous and doesn’t make much sense.

Here is Khalifa’s translation of the Hadith to make it sound a little more serious:

`Ali was asked: "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."

How does Ali sitting around the house naked help anything is just one of the many absurdities of this Hadith.


Is it the same Ali that fought Ayesha according to the stories and many lives were lost in the battle ? So, in case of addition to the Qur'an, the best reaction this guy had was to take a vow of nakedness ?

How many times has this original Quran been destroyed/burned? Didn’t another guy supposedly named Uthman allegedly do the same exact thing years earlier? A lie is getting recycled.


The history of the Qur'an is mysterious. Apparently, hadith collectors/recorders/preserves thought of such an event like burning of all Qur'an's to be a very minor event in the history of Islam. Who cares who burnt all that Qur'an, may be ali, or Usman, or Muhammad...just who cares ?


 :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall:

i beg forgiveness for going so much off-topic.

Peace
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ayman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2012, 09:18:33 PM »
Off-topic alert !!
Is it the same Ali that fought Ayesha according to the stories and many lives were lost in the battle ? So, in case of addition to the Qur'an, the best reaction this guy had was to take a vow of nakedness ?

This is actually not off-topic. This is very much relevant to the topic of Khalifa.

It is already established that the Hadith is nothing but idiotic nonsense. So I will go more into the actual historicity of Ali.

The only physical evidence of Ali from the time is in a Syriac manuscript:

"When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of Hira, at Siffin and defeated him."

Ali is referred to as Abu Turab. His role was the prince of Hira. It seems like the civil war was bad enough that it forced Mu'awiya to make peace with his external enemies. This physical evidence from the era gives a different account than the traditional stories. No mention of Ali or Mu'awiya being cousins to the prophet. Instead, we get the impression that Mu'awiya is fighting a local provincial governor who went out of line.

It is highly unlikely that any of those political leaders who all claimed to be relatives of the prophet were in fact his relatives or even ever saw the prophet.

It seems like anyone who wanted to gain legitimacy was claiming to be a relative of the prophet. This is also the same lie that Khalifa made up to give himself legitimacy when he claimed that he looked like Abraham. This type of lie is part of the Arab psyche. Arab elite use it to this day. The King of Jordan claims to be a descendant of the prophet and so do many Arab elite. There is a whole booming industry of con artists who can trace your family tree back to the prophet if you pay them a few hundred dollars and they will even give you an official certificate that you are one of the Ashraaf (which is the name given to people allegedly descending from the prophet). 

The history of the Qur'an is mysterious. Apparently, hadith collectors/recorders/preserves thought of such an event like burning of all Qur'an's to be a very minor event in the history of Islam. Who cares who burnt all that Qur'an, may be ali, or Usman, or Muhammad...just who cares ?
i beg forgiveness for going so much off-topic.

The history of the great reading is not mysterious. It is likely older than we think. From a purely historic point of view, the great reading doesn't mention any of the events of the Arab conquests or the Arab kingdom so we know that it must predate the Arab kingdom.

Islamic Arab history generally starts with the birth of the prophet, which is supposedly 570CE and is said to coincide with the year of Abraha's expidition. However, even this most important starting point of Islamic Arab history is very problematic. We actually have physical evidence of the inscription of Abraha commemorating his expedition and the year of his expedition translates to 552CE. This is 18 years prior to the Islamic Arab history.

Interestingly, a manuscript by Jacob of Edessa records that the kingdom of the Arabs started invading the Roman teritories when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year. This translates to 620-621CE. So according to the physical evidence from those witnesses, the Arabs had a kingdom and were invading the Romans at the time when, according to traditions, the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!

So the dates are definitely problematic and we can also see this in Hadiths where many of the narrators are alleged to have lived over 100 years. So the same tendancy to push the birth of the narrators back would result in pushing the time when the prophet lived forward to make them overlap. I would say that the great reading was probably revealed between 10 to 20 years prior to the Islamic Arabic history dating.

Peace,

Ayman

TruthBehindIt

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2012, 11:58:32 PM »
Many of those who follow the Quran alone and yet reject and even insult Rashad Khalifa have received the message indirectly from Rashad.

Peace,
Edip

The Message (from The Creator)---Or---the Messenger (creation)

Which One is more IMPORTANT???

Indeed, The Message from The Creator and the Sustainer....is more IMPORTANT...than the Messeger (creation).

So, if it had been compulsory to follow the Messenger, .....then Allah would have kept the Messenger alive until Al-Qiyamah for the people to follow him.

But no.....

The MESSAGE (from The Creator, Sustainer, Helper, Giver) is very much there....one should follow It.



Student of Allah

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2012, 03:51:43 AM »
This is actually not off-topic. This is very much relevant to the topic of Khalifa.

It is already established that the Hadith is nothing but idiotic nonsense. So I will go more into the actual historicity of Ali.

The only physical evidence of Ali from the time is in a Syriac manuscript:

"When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of Hira, at Siffin and defeated him."


Ali is referred to as Abu Turab. His role was the prince of Hira. It seems like the civil war was bad enough that it forced Mu'awiya to make peace with his external enemies. This physical evidence from the era gives a different account than the traditional stories. No mention of Ali or Mu'awiya being cousins to the prophet. Instead, we get the impression that Mu'awiya is fighting a local provincial governor who went out of line.

It is highly unlikely that any of those political leaders who all claimed to be relatives of the prophet were in fact his relatives or even ever saw the prophet.

It seems like anyone who wanted to gain legitimacy was claiming to be a relative of the prophet. This is also the same lie that Khalifa made up to give himself legitimacy when he claimed that he looked like Abraham. This type of lie is part of the Arab psyche. Arab elite use it to this day. The King of Jordan claims to be a descendant of the prophet and so do many Arab elite. There is a whole booming industry of con artists who can trace your family tree back to the prophet if you pay them a few hundred dollars and they will even give you an official certificate that you are one of the Ashraaf (which is the name given to people allegedly descending from the prophet). 

The history of the great reading is not mysterious. It is likely older than we think. From a purely historic point of view, the great reading doesn't mention any of the events of the Arab conquests or the Arab kingdom so we know that it must predate the Arab kingdom.

Islamic Arab history generally starts with the birth of the prophet, which is supposedly 570CE and is said to coincide with the year of Abraha's expidition. However, even this most important starting point of Islamic Arab history is very problematic. We actually have physical evidence of the inscription of Abraha commemorating his expedition and the year of his expedition translates to 552CE. This is 18 years prior to the Islamic Arab history.

Interestingly, a manuscript by Jacob of Edessa records that the kingdom of the Arabs started invading the Roman teritories when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year. This translates to 620-621CE. So according to the physical evidence from those witnesses, the Arabs had a kingdom and were invading the Romans at the time when, according to traditions, the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!

So the dates are definitely problematic and we can also see this in Hadiths where many of the narrators are alleged to have lived over 100 years. So the same tendancy to push the birth of the narrators back would result in pushing the time when the prophet lived forward to make them overlap. I would say that the great reading was probably revealed between 10 to 20 years prior to the Islamic Arabic history dating.

Peace,

Ayman

Shalom Aleikhem,

Thanks for sharing that. Indeed, many people do think that their genealogy is a substitute for evidence of their claim and a justification of their deeds. We live in a world full of idol worshipers, in one sense or the other.

On a personal level, I found Rashad to be extremely dodgy. Some of his teachings are such that I would expect no messenger to preach. What I understood of The Book is that a messenger is human like us, however, this does not mean that he would walk around teaching stuff from himself.

I am aware that some people here choose to be diplomatic and say that Rashad's message was Qur'an alone, there is no harm in following that and etc. Well, thats my message too, thats your message too I suppose. But we are not talking about that kind of messengership, so I find such diplomatic answers to be absurd.


Peace
------------- Student of Allah

good logic

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2012, 08:45:50 AM »
Peace Student of Allah.
Please allow me to ask you the following questions:

1- Who is/was/will be the messenger of 3:81?

2-  If someone has been who was it? ( It cannot be Muhammed!)

3-  In the light of the Koran who will it be, if someone has not already been sent?.

Peace.
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Student of Allah

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2012, 09:37:22 AM »
Peace Student of Allah.
Please allow me to ask you the following questions:

1- Who is/was/will be the messenger of 3:81?

2-  If someone has been who was it? ( It cannot be Muhammed!)

3-  In the light of the Koran who will it be, if someone has not already been sent?.

Peace.

Shalom Aleikhem,

I am a bit baffled as I do not share your assumptions. Basically, what you asked me if I rephrase it :

"Given that Muhammad is not the one in 3:81, who else is it ?"

I do not share the "given that" part of your question.

To answer who I think is the person, it is the messenger of the Qur'an. In any case, I would like to know why you are so much interested in that, if you share your enthusiasm , probably we can both learn from the experience.


Peace
------------ Student of Allah