RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?

[good logic]

"... Call to your Lord, you are on the right path."
Your Creator teaches HIS message, your Creator guides to the right path.
 Your Lord requires submission and total loyalty to HIM ALONE!
" None can grasp( understand,follow,...) it, except the sincere."
The message is go to your Lord.
Peace

[Student of Allah]

Shalom Aleikhem,

Peace be with you as well,
Yes that would be important, the message.
The message of Muhammad was the Quran,
The message of RK was basically to follow the Quran alone.

To be precise, it was the Qur'an minus 2 verses. .....and to follow that alone or not is debatable.

Peace
-------------- Student of Allah

[good logic]

Debate?: who is this messenger? And what are the proofs?/ Miracles?...

40:69″ Have you noted those who argue against GOD s proofs(miracles?) and how they have deviated.”

40:78″ We have sent messengers before you, some of them We mentioned to you and some We did not. No messenger can produce any miracle (or proof) without GOD s authorisation. Once GOD s judgement is issued, the truth dominates and the falsifiers are exposed and humiliated.”

40:81″ HE ( GOD) thus shows you HIS proofs( miracles). Which of GOD s proofs(miracles) can you deny?”

 41:6″ Say:” I am no more than a human being like you, who has been inspired that your god is ONE god. You shall be devoted to HIM, and ask HIS forgiveness. Woe to the idols worshippers.” ( Followers of doctrines, wishful thinking , man made stuff and guesswork…)

41:41″ Those who have rejected the Koran s proof ( From this generation) have also rejected an honourable book.” (A message from your Creator!)
Peace

[Student of Allah]

Debate?: who is this messenger? And what are the proofs?/ Miracles?...

40:69″ Have you noted those who argue against GOD s proofs(miracles?) and how they have deviated.”

40:78″ We have sent messengers before you, some of them We mentioned to you and some We did not. No messenger can produce any miracle (or proof) without GOD s authorisation. Once GOD s judgement is issued, the truth dominates and the falsifiers are exposed and humiliated.”

40:81″ HE ( GOD) thus shows you HIS proofs( miracles). Which of GOD s proofs(miracles) can you deny?”

 41:6″ Say:” I am no more than a human being like you, who has been inspired that your god is ONE god. You shall be devoted to HIM, and ask HIS forgiveness. Woe to the idols worshippers.” ( Followers of doctrines, wishful thinking , man made stuff and guesswork…)

41:41″ Those who have rejected the Koran s proof ( From this generation) have also rejected an honourable book.” (A message from your Creator!)
Peace

Shalom aleikhem,

Incase your comment was a response to what I said.... know that first it has nothing to do with "debate over following Qur'an alone or not". Second, Nishitoba can use the same verses....God...any fraud can use these verses. It means nothing, unless we have anything concrete to verify. And let me tell you in advance that I have not yet been able to verify those claims (to the extent of the claim).

Don't take it the wrong way, ofcourse I could be wrong. Just sharing the reason I see the world the way I see it.

Peace
----------- Student of Allah

[good logic]

Peace Student of Allah.
I do not take take things the wrong way. I respect all views. I only worry about whether my creator approves/ disapproves . No one can hide from HIM:

 11:5″ Indeed ,they try  to hide their innermost thoughts as if to keep HIM (GOD) from knowing them. In fact as they cover themselves with clothes ( They are unable to cover their innermost thoughts from GOD) HE knows all their secrets and declarations. HE knows the innermost thoughts of all. ( HIS creations.)”
I also know that the message is the most important priority.Otherwise I will be following" others"- Idols( I will be of the following):

2:40″ You do not follow beside GOD except innovations that you have made up, you and your parents. GOD has never authorised such idols. ( In the kingdom of GOD there is only ONE ruler, ONE authority, otherwise – if there were other authorities- there will be rebellion and chaos!!!) All ruling belongs to GOD. And HE has ruled that you shall worship only HIM. ( Submit and stay loyal to GOD) This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know

My Lord also tells me:

12:103″ Most people , no matter what you do, will not believe.”

 

12:105″ So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass them by ,heedlessly.”

 

12:106″ The majority of those who believe in GOD, do not do so without committing idol worship.”

A true messenger of god will preach the following:


12:108″ Say:” This is my path ( submission and total loyalty to GOD ALONE) I invite to GOD, on the basis of a clear proof ( that this scripture is from GOD; Check it !) and so do those who follow me. ( in my submission and loyalty) GOD be glorified, I am not an idol worshipper.” “

I will always believe such messenger.
Peace again.

[youssef4342]

Shalom Aleikhem,
To be precise, it was the Qur'an minus 2 verses. .....and to follow that alone or not is debatable.

Peace
-------------- Student of Allah

Actually, "The Qur'an, the whole Qur'an, and nothing but the Qur'an."

No falsehood could enter the Quran, (41:41).... thus there is a direct contradiction between deleting "falsehood" verses from the Quran, and  41:41


We know that the dveil puts something in the wants of every messenger and prophet, thus if RK was a messenger, the Devil might have skewed his message of follow the quran alone, to follow the Quran alone, minus 2 verses, plus 2.5% charity, a total of 5 salats friday sermons, all of which are not found in the Quran.... and yet the Quran is not missing anything 6:38
Thus should we follow the message of RK (Quran alone), or the faulty human messenger, who himself was trying to follow his message (Quran alone)

[good logic]

How do you follow the message?  What is the role of a true messenger?

Is the most important criteria  to sincerely submit to your creator? Is HE the one who guides? teaches HIS word? Explains?

Also HE tests those who claim to believe?  Are some messengers used as a test for the believers?

Following Koran alone or messenger or... can also be part of the test

.10:105″ I am commanded:” Keep yourself devoted to strict Monotheism ( Submission and total loyalty to the ONE GOD!) You shall not practise idol worship.” “

10:106″ Do not ( follow)Worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you. If you do you are a transgressor.”

10:108″ Proclaim:” O People, ( All the humans!) the truth has come to you from your Lord. Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good and whoever goes astray is to his own detriment. I am not your guardian.

( I do not have your answers, I have mine. Your creator has your answers, try HIM? And then…)

 

10:109″ Follow what is revealed to you and be patient until GOD issues HIS judgement. HE is the best Judge.”

 The sincere ,after the test, will get their answers from their creator?
Peace

[Bahman]

Should we follow Rashad Khalifa the Messenger or his Message?

Followers of Rashad out there have to realize that God Almighty himself states that he allows the devil to put falsehood in EVERY prophet/messenger he sends [/u]. Then The Almighty rules with his Revelations/Words and leaves what the devil fabricated to be a test !

Let us reason! DO you not think that the Almighty would test the so called believers of Rashad Khalifa's Message of "Quran Alone" After he has given them a profound mathematiclal miracle to TEST THEIR FAITH?

Rashad Khalifa was a Human Messenger , and we know directly from the Quran that human messengers err and make mistakes.
The Quran emphasises that Human messengers are not infallible, and that they are apt to make mistakes just like anyone else. Many examples are given in the Quran for specific mistakes committed by various messengers and prophets. We note that Muhammad is reprimanded in the Quran six times for mistakes he committed. Mistakes for other messengers include Moses killing an innocent man, Jonah abandoning God's mission, Solomon forgetting his prayer, Joseph (when he was in prison) putting his trust and fate in the ruler's hand when he should have remembered that God is the Only One to decide his fate.

Now, Rashad was to say vehement about his idealogy of following the Quran alone. Even in one of his videos(big debate), he stated that [n] "If i tell you to do anything that is not in the Quran, DO NOT DO IT!" [/b]Thus Rashad's message, is what should be followed, not his human self!

Please Reason, do you not think that God Almighty will test you? Indeed he will! He Even states so in 29:2!!!
Note Rashad's own words when he wrote: "The moment they seek guidance from ANYTHING besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap" (appendix 19)

Let's reason!
Where is the 2.5% charity that Rashad states to spend? Is it not from traditional sources??? How Outright Hypocritical it is to say that we should spend 2.5% while it is not in the Quran at all, when the submitters/followers of Rashad claim that they follow the Quran Alone! God ALmighty did not send  messengers to "decieve" us, but messengers to disceren and differentiate us to the truthful, hypocrits, disbelievers etc.
Futhuremore, Is it not illogical to think that people during Abraham's time would give 2.5% of their income? Tell me, how much is 2.5% of an apple? (Note that the bible cites a charity/tithe of 10% that was given by Abraham himself, and succeded by people all the way through the New Testament (Jesus Confirmed the Tithe 10%). Thus again, the 2.5% is wrong). In the light of the Quran, God Almighty answers the question what/how much should they give, to an open answer of the "extra/afw" that we have in the Quran (2:219)!
 

Moreover, the 5 prayers a day theory is wrong because it cannot be supported from the Quran because, since there are only 3 prayers mentioned by NAME in the Quran (Fajr 24:58, middle 2:238, and  Isha 24:58)  (Surely His Dominating, Most Supreme, High Majesty assures us that he did not leave anything out of the Quran 6:38. Now how are do we go about to name the other 2 salats according to the 5 salat theory? Salat al zuhr and salat al-3sr are but fabrications not found in the Quran
Now to conform that Submission/Islam is the religion of Abraham, we find that there are only 3 prayers mention in the previous scriptures as well: See in the Old testement's times for prayer evening, morning, and noon in psalm 55:17, and strictly the Prophet Daniel praying 3 times a day in Daniel 6:10)  and the New Testament's times for prayer  3rth, 6th, and 9th hours. Salat is equivelant of the Aramaic 'sloota' (Prayer) and the Hebrew Tfillah (prayer) or Amidah (standing prayer) Which is basically the 3 daily prayers, consisting of  19 Blessings to be recited: Watch the Original Jewish Amidah (Standing Prayer) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg
Submitters like to bring about how the 24434 prayer Sequential Rak'a system is a miracle because it is divisable by the number 19. However, this is not the case since 1) the sequence is divisible by 19 even if one reverses the sequence. See: www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/the_code_19_(P1203).html
And 2) because there is absolutely no such thing as a rak'a system in the Quran!

Also, It is worthy to note that in Sura 74, God tells us that the code of 19 is employed specifically to prove the divinity of the book as opposed to those who claimed that the Quran is man-made (74:25). Thus the miracle of the Quran is IN THE QURAN, and not in personal calculations worked out by employing non-Quranic data to prove non-Quranic issues! (Let me cite the Example of the Bahasi who revere the number 19 to where they changed the count of months to 19 months and do hold a fast for month each year (i.e 19 days), whould we thus conclude that the bahais are a miracle because they based their beliefs on the number 19?)!
Another thing is that the prayer on the day of congregation/gathering (jum'a)  does not consists of 2 "khutbas" or sermons, because there is not such mention of the word, nor the commandmend to bring about a sermon on the day of congregation/gathering (jum3a)!


Let me Ask you submitters? Is the 2.5%, 5 daily salats, friday sermons, from the Quran? Is This following the Quran Alone?
What about the deletion of the two verse at the end of sura 9 in the Quran? How hypocritical when God Almighty himself assures us that "no falsehood can enter into it!!!..." (41:42)  (See a logical explanation of the absense of a bismillah in sura 9-- it being a Law-decreeing sura (Muhkim) see: www.free-minds.org/muhkam-mutashabih)
How hypocritical for the SUbmitters to use the Hadiths as a source of their truth for the deletion of the 2 ending verses of sura 9!
Well if you believe that you can take Hadiths as history, then look at the article of "Why was Prophet Muhammad observing Salat at only 3 times of the day?" on www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/prophet_and_3_prayers_(P1379).html
Now Look at the real number of salats mentioned in the Quran:http://www.quran-islam.org/number_of_salat_(P1137).html
http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/number_of_salat_(P1200).html



I ask Every Submitter out there to question their beliefs!
I will Remind again, DO you not think that the Almighty would test the so called believers of Rashad Khalifa's Message of "Quran Alone" After he has given them a profound mathematiclal miracle to TEST THEIR FAITH?

Peace and God Bless you for your attempt, i agree with most of your opinion but in some point need more detail, GW as soon i get rid off earthly material which evey summer i involve i would write,
Nice place in FB  too 
Peace.

[ayman]

Peace Youssef,

Let us reason! DO you not think that the Almighty would test the so called believers of Rashad Khalifa's Message of "Quran Alone" After he has given them a profound mathematiclal miracle to TEST THEIR FAITH????

Youssef, I think that your assessment, although well intended, doesn't agree with what Khalifa himself did.

Please keep in mind that Khalifa didn't declare messengership after he made the claims about the so-called mathematical miracle. He had made those claims years prior to declaring to be a messenger. He declared messengership based on a story about a dream. This dream is the cornerstone of his claim of messengership. The second cornerstone of his messengership was not "quran alone". The second cornerstone of his messengership was the removal of 9:128-129 since he claimed that he came as a messenger to "purify the quran from those two false verses."

Ironically both cornerstones of his messengership are based 100% on Hadiths. His dream about visiting with the prophets in heaven is plagiarized from Hadiths even down to the details of boasting about looking like Abraham:

قال ابن إسحاق ‏‏:‏‏ وزعم الزهرى عن سعيد بن المسيب أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وصف لأصحابه إبراهيم وموسى وعيسى حين رآهم في تلك الليلة ، فقال ‏‏:‏‏ أما إبراهيم ، فلم أر رجلا أشبه قط بصاحبكم ، ولا صاحبكم أشبه به منه ؛ وأما موسى ، فرجل آدم طويل ضرب جعد أقنى كأنه من رجال شنوءة ؛ وأما عيسى بن مريم ، فرجل أحمر ، بين القصير والطويل ، سبط الشعر ، كثير خِيلان الوجه ، كأنه خرج من ديماس ، تخال رأسه يقطر ماء ، وليس به ماء ، أشبه رجالكم به عروة بن مسعود الثقفي ‏‏.

Here is a translation of the part of the Hadith that inspired Khalifa in case you can’t read Arabic:

As for Abraham, I have never seen a man who looks more like me and I look more like him.

And of course overyone knows that the removal of 9:128-129 is based 100% on Hadith.

Rashad Khalifa was a Human Messenger , and we know directly from the Quran that human messengers err and make mistakes.
The Quran emphasises that Human messengers are not infallible, and that they are apt to make mistakes just like anyone else. Many examples are given in the Quran for specific mistakes committed by various messengers and prophets. We note that Muhammad is reprimanded in the Quran six times for mistakes he committed. Mistakes for other messengers include Moses killing an innocent man, Jonah abandoning God's mission, Solomon forgetting his prayer, Joseph (when he was in prison) putting his trust and fate in the ruler's hand when he should have remembered that God is the Only One to decide his fate.

Khalifa's delusions were not honest mistakes. He was a liar and a hypocrite. The two cornerstones of his messengership were based on Hadiths!

What about the deletion of the two verse at the end of sura 9 in the Quran? How hypocritical when God Almighty himself assures us that "no falsehood can enter into it!!!..." (41:42)  (See a logical explanation of the absense of a bismillah in sura 9-- it being a Law-decreeing sura (Muhkim) see: www.free-minds.org/muhkam-mutashabih)
How hypocritical for the SUbmitters to use the Hadiths as a source of their truth for the deletion of the 2 ending verses of sura 9!

The simplest and more logical explanation is that there is simply no missing Bismallah and Chapter 8 actually included what is presently Chapter 9 and the great reading has 113 chapters. You have to keep in mind that chapter titles and decorations that separate chapters are a later innovations. In  the early manuscripts the Bismallah was the only separator.

Peace,

Ayman

[youssef4342]

Peace Ayman,

Thank you for replying.
I personally would believe in the message of Rashad which is basically to follow the Quran alone.
No Falsehood could enter the Quran. I now don't believe in removing 9:128-9.

Some of the things that Rashad taught/advocated, such as the 2.5% zakat, 5 salat, friday sermons etc, are not from the Quran.

We know that the Devil interferes/injects something in the want of every messenger/prophet as per 22:52, and God Almighty kind of leaves what the devil puts as a TRIAL for those of weary hearts 22:53...
thus Even if Rashad was a messenger,The devil must have interfered with his wants...

I would believe that he 2.5% zakat, 5 salat, friday sermons etc, had been injected in Rashad's message, and that would be the Trial... because he would be advocating following the Quran alone, not something outside of the Quran....The Quran is not missing anything 6:38.