Author Topic: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?  (Read 4572 times)

Bahman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2012, 08:02:01 PM »
Peace Youssef,

Youssef, I think that your assessment, although well intended, doesn't agree with what Khalifa himself did.

Please keep in mind that Khalifa didn't declare messengership after he made the claims about the so-called mathematical miracle. He had made those claims years prior to declaring to be a messenger. He declared messengership based on a story about a dream. This dream is the cornerstone of his claim of messengership. The second cornerstone of his messengership was not "quran alone". The second cornerstone of his messengership was the removal of 9:128-129 since he claimed that he came as a messenger to "purify the quran from those two false verses."

Ironically both cornerstones of his messengership are based 100% on Hadiths. His dream about visiting with the prophets in heaven is plagiarized from Hadiths even down to the details of boasting about looking like Abraham:

قال ابن إسحاق ‏‏:‏‏ وزعم الزهرى عن سعيد بن المسيب أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وصف لأصحابه إبراهيم وموسى وعيسى حين رآهم في تلك الليلة ، فقال ‏‏:‏‏ أما إبراهيم ، فلم أر رجلا أشبه قط بصاحبكم ، ولا صاحبكم أشبه به منه ؛ وأما موسى ، فرجل آدم طويل ضرب جعد أقنى كأنه من رجال شنوءة ؛ وأما عيسى بن مريم ، فرجل أحمر ، بين القصير والطويل ، سبط الشعر ، كثير خِيلان الوجه ، كأنه خرج من ديماس ، تخال رأسه يقطر ماء ، وليس به ماء ، أشبه رجالكم به عروة بن مسعود الثقفي ‏‏.


Here is a translation of the part of the Hadith that inspired Khalifa in case you can’t read Arabic:

As for Abraham, I have never seen a man who looks more like me and I look more like him.

And of course overyone knows that the removal of 9:128-129 is based 100% on Hadith.

Khalifa's delusions were not honest mistakes. He was a liar and a hypocrite. The two cornerstones of his messengership were based on Hadiths!

The simplest and more logical explanation is that there is simply no missing Bismallah and Chapter 8 actually included what is presently Chapter 9 and the great reading has 113 chapters. You have to keep in mind that chapter titles and decorations that separate chapters are a later innovations. In  the early manuscripts the Bismallah was the only separator.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman
First I appreciate for allowing me to republish your claim but not many are interested as is big blow to Sunnah, they reject your claim without any examination of of it as they do something with Miracle.
If all your claim be wrong but black stone is demonstrating something wrong with place when is nor authored in Quran, and then recent finding adds more question ???
I am not sure if Dr.Eid agrees with your claim :)

I noticed  how with a few word the mind of Yousef changed to a disbeliever so quick. :) This is not first time that i see some people come here to promote miracle and with your repeated SUNNISM accusation which is mix of truth and false they change their mind which is based on misunderstanding the Miracle and can not understand Interlocking system is used in Miracle .
They feel more comfortable with REFORM ( keeping some of past plus some new ideas) than clear cut of their idolization learning past.   They are happy to do their 5-3-2-  .... 17 times with code 17 and 19 as tradition.  If Rashad was an theist and then his claim and ideas could be clear of any tradition but growing up in a religious family and practcing it for 40 years could mislead him to some mistake which could result of his companions which wee yet they discuss the issues schi olarly and ignore opinion of regular  people like me.  :)
It is years that I have stated iam not Submitter but  believer.  :)
I remember a female Submitter  was here and may be here yet that promoting Miracle with all kind of word but no example, when i contacted to her and asked how much you know about Interlocking system is used in First chapter she did not know enough and when i asked what caused you believe in Miracle she told me that her sister believed and she do not lie !!! and then she told me a personal case of her life was going for 19 years !!!!!
I think i should start to open a topic for testing all Submitters, from top to down to see how many of them understood reality behind such Security textual numerical interlocking system.
Many of them thin anything multiple of 19 is Miracle and your claim for 1/19 works prefect with these people, instead of bringing example and explaining the how the system works and functions they send disbeliever  to hell and other one use it to claim be another messenger. :)

 I am happy with your presence and your post for challenging and something Eid which either    have PHD, you in mechanic and Eid in Mathematics, but academic degree can help to certain point for understanding Miracle, first thing is disconnection with parents belief totally and convert to researcher for find existence of superhuman with any name.

I make it short Miracle do not need any human support its interlocked superhuman system is clearing everything and removing doubt from heart of doubters by itself.

What you I and others write on this screen and is recorded is not Hadith, our children would not read that as Hadith but opinion of older generation and their understanding of truth and fact

And now we have such simple to understand impossible to imitate . ( No manipulation design your own from scratch,) 
http://mastertablet.ca/
http://youtu.be/6ace4i1osfU
http://purified-scripture.com/
Peace



 
 

youssef4342

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2012, 03:09:41 PM »
Bahman,
what do you mean me turning into a disbeliever?
ii would believe in 19 being a mathematical composition, i wouln't believe in the 2.5% zakat, 2,4,4,3,4 salat, which are not from the Quran
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progressive1993

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2012, 03:31:42 PM »
Bahman,
what do you mean me turning into a disbeliever?
ii would believe in 19 being a mathematical composition, i wouln't believe in the 2.5% zakat, 2,4,4,3,4 salat, which are not from the Quran

That is what I go with.
"Sexual Laws of the Quran" article coming soon!

ayman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2012, 09:28:22 PM »
Peace Bahman,

First I appreciate for allowing me to republish your claim but not many are interested as is big blow to Sunnah, they reject your claim without any examination of of it as they do something with Miracle.
If all your claim be wrong but black stone is demonstrating something wrong with place when is nor authored in Quran, and then recent finding adds more question ???
I am not sure if Dr.Eid agrees with your claim :)

Any reasonable person would agree that spinning seven times around a stone cube is mindless and reeks of paganism. I am sure that Eid is a reasonable person and therefore would agree. I am also sure that Khalifa didn't agree with you :) since he did in fact perform that pagan ritual without hesitation or the slightest attempt to use his god-given brain  :hail. Maybe Khalifa was one of those "messengers" with half a brain and a full ego. Maybe if he wasn't too preoccupied with how Abraham looked like him and instead asked Abraham about the stone cube then Abraham would have told him: "Hey dude, are you serious?! You spin seven times around a stone cube! Get out of here you stupid pagan messenger who looks like me!"

I noticed  how with a few word the mind of Yousef changed to a disbeliever so quick. :) This is not first time that i see some people come here to promote miracle and with your repeated SUNNISM accusation which is mix of truth and false they change their mind which is based on misunderstanding the Miracle and can not understand Interlocking system is used in Miracle .

I agree that Youssef is a disbeliever in Code 19 and Khalifa's messengership. It is interesting that he doesn't know it (yet).

They feel more comfortable with REFORM ( keeping some of past plus some new ideas) than clear cut of their idolization learning past.   They are happy to do their 5-3-2-  .... 17 times with code 17 and 19 as tradition.  If Rashad was an theist and then his claim and ideas could be clear of any tradition but growing up in a religious family and practcing it for 40 years could mislead him to some mistake which could result of his companions which wee yet they discuss the issues schi olarly and ignore opinion of regular  people like me.  :)
It is years that I have stated iam not Submitter but  believer.  :)

Bahman, you talk negatively about those who kept some of their idoltarous past when this is exactly what Khalifa did. In this regards you are much better than Khalifa.

I remember a female Submitter  was here and may be here yet that promoting Miracle with all kind of word but no example, when i contacted to her and asked how much you know about Interlocking system is used in First chapter she did not know enough and when i asked what caused you believe in Miracle she told me that her sister believed and she do not lie !!! and then she told me a personal case of her life was going for 19 years !!!!!
I think i should start to open a topic for testing all Submitters, from top to down to see how many of them understood reality behind such Security textual numerical interlocking system.

This so-called interlocking claim was never made by Khalifa. It is based on some numerology that Arik did. It has nothing to do with Khalifa.

You know very well that none of Khalifa's claims has any so called interlock with 666 or 1 2 3 4 or whatever nice looking number you want to make up.

Many of them thin anything multiple of 19 is Miracle and your claim for 1/19 works prefect with these people, instead of bringing example and explaining the how the system works and functions they send disbeliever  to hell and other one use it to claim be another messenger. :)

This is exactly what Khalifa did. He thought that anything multiple of 19 is a miracle. You can see this in his appendices.

I am happy with your presence and your post for challenging and something Eid which either    have PHD, you in mechanic and Eid in Mathematics, but academic degree can help to certain point for understanding Miracle, first thing is disconnection with parents belief totally and convert to researcher for find existence of superhuman with any name.
I make it short Miracle do not need any human support its interlocked superhuman system is clearing everything and removing doubt from heart of doubters by itself.
What you I and others write on this screen and is recorded is not Hadith, our children would not read that as Hadith but opinion of older generation and their understanding of truth and fact
And now we have such simple to understand impossible to imitate . ( No manipulation design your own from scratch,) 
http://mastertablet.ca/
http://youtu.be/6ace4i1osfU
http://purified-scripture.com/

You are demonstrating my point. Your so-called "interlocking miracle" in those links has nothing to do with Khalifa or any of his claims, including his chief claim to be a messenger whose duty is to remove 9:128-129.

Your argument is completely irrelevant to the subject of this discussion. You are fighting windmills.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2012, 09:41:10 PM »
Peace Youssef,

what do you mean me turning into a disbeliever?
ii would believe in 19 being a mathematical composition, i wouln't believe in the 2.5% zakat, 2,4,4,3,4 salat, which are not from the Quran

You said it yourself that you are a disbeliever. If you said the following then you are indeed a disbeliever in Code 19 and Khalifa's messengership:

I now don't believe in removing 9:128-9.

This means that you don't believe in Code 19 since a major part of the so-called code is the removal of 9:128-129.

This also means that you don't believe in Khalifa's messengership since his mission was to "purify" the message by removing 9:128-129.

So whether you like it or not you are a disbeliever in Code 19 and Khalifa.

Peace,

Ayman

youssef4342

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2012, 10:05:25 AM »
Peace Youssef,

You said it yourself that you are a disbeliever. If you said the following then you are indeed a disbeliever in Code 19 and Khalifa's messengership:

This means that you don't believe in Code 19 since a major part of the so-called code is the removal of 9:128-129.

This also means that you don't believe in Khalifa's messengership since his mission was to "purify" the message by removing 9:128-129.

So whether you like it or not you are a disbeliever in Code 19 and Khalifa.

Peace,

Ayman

peace Ayman...
I would believe in the MESSAGE of Rashad, which would be to follow the Quran alone.
My Quran says that no falsehood could enter it from the past nor the future. I don't believe in removing any verses. I don't believe in 2.5% charity or rak'a in salat , friday sermons etc.

Rashad would be contradicting himself: follow the Quran alone, and yet follow outside traditions such as 2.5% etc....
I would take in, follow the Quran alone and leave the traditions.

and i think you might know ayman that you don't need to remove the ending verses of sura 9. Rashad was using the Hafs version. People should expirement with other versions of the Quran (qira'at), which have a slightly different numbering system of verses. there are around 14 versions on this website, in pdf files, and some have an excerpt of differences

14 Versions of the Quran!
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603179.0
The Count of verses are divisable by 19 without the removal of 9:128-129!
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603122.0
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ayman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2012, 11:46:50 AM »
I would believe in the MESSAGE of Rashad, which would be to follow the Quran alone.

But this was not Khalifa's message. According to Khalifa himself, his primary function as a messenger was to purify the message by removing 9:128-129. You are ignoring the facts to escape this reality.

My Quran says that no falsehood could enter it from the past nor the future. I don't believe in removing any verses. I don't believe in 2.5% charity or rak'a in salat , friday sermons etc.
Rashad would be contradicting himself: follow the Quran alone, and yet follow outside traditions such as 2.5% etc....

So Rashad was a hypocrite. We know this.

I would take in, follow the Quran alone and leave the traditions.

and i think you might know ayman that you don't need to remove the ending verses of sura 9. Rashad was using the Hafs version. People should expirement with other versions of the Quran (qira'at), which have a slightly different numbering system of verses. there are around 14 versions on this website, in pdf files, and some have an excerpt of differences
14 Versions of the Quran!
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603179.0
The Count of verses are divisable by 19 without the removal of 9:128-129!
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603122.0

The count of verses is only ONE item. Khalifa shows 71 "facts" in Appendix 24. What do you have to say about the remaining "overwhelming" 70 "facts"? You are simply picking and choosing one convenient item and disregarding the whole reality to stay in denial while putting your conscious at ease in the face of major inconsistencies and doubts about Khalifa and Code 19.

Peace,

Ayman

good logic

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2012, 12:25:31 PM »
Peace everyone.

Some are a" test" to others.    Show patience. Respect each other.

Your Lord sees ( hears and knows) everything.

Follow what  is from GOD. Do not follow" others" even the messenger ( if it contradicts the scripture).

The Lord is the only judge. Let us not judge others or call them. 

Now state your case, prove your point and debate with justice.

Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:” I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.”

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

youssef4342

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2012, 05:00:14 PM »
Well ayman, as i would see it, the devil interferes with every messenger and prophet as per 22:52
The devil puts something in the wants of every messenger and prophet.

I believe in the notion of following the Quran alone,

Rashad's message was to basically follow the Quran alone.
Even in his great debate video, Rashad Himself stated something like "If i tell you to do anything that is not in the Quran, DO NOT DO IT!"

Rashad might have advocated the 2.5% charity etc, however, that might just be how the devil interfered with his wishes, by puting traditions into his message of follow the Quran alone.

Can you tell me anyone before rashad who had the message of following the Quran alone?

i would believe in the message of Rashad, which was to basically follow the Quran alone.
i wouldn't believe in his faults, and addendums as the 2.5% charity.
Rashad was a human he made mistakes.

This would be the topic of the original post,
follow rashad, or his message?  i.e follow Quran alone or his 2.5% charity  etc
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ayman

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Re: RK: Follow the Message or the Messenger?
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2012, 06:10:22 PM »
Well ayman, as i would see it, the devil interferes with every messenger and prophet as per 22:52
The devil puts something in the wants of every messenger and prophet.

Are you saying that the devil made him remove 9:128-129? His claim of messengership was primarily based on him being tasked with purifying the message by removing 9:128-129. So this means that his primary claim of messengership is from the devil.

I believe in the notion of following the Quran alone,
Rashad's message was to basically follow the Quran alone.
Even in his great debate video, Rashad Himself stated something like "If i tell you to do anything that is not in the Quran, DO NOT DO IT!"
Rashad might have advocated the 2.5% charity etc, however, that might just be how the devil interfered with his wishes, by puting traditions into his message of follow the Quran alone.
Can you tell me anyone before rashad who had the message of following the Quran alone?

I had personally rejected Hadiths and was trying to follow the great reading alone long before I heard about Khalifa and I know others who are the same. Do you really believe that this is something so unique? It is common sense. There is a big difference between the great reading and Hadiths. Anyone with half a brain who studies Hadiths would reject them and follow the great reading alone.

i would believe in the message of Rashad, which was to basically follow the Quran alone.
i wouldn't believe in his faults, and addendums as the 2.5% charity.
Rashad was a human he made mistakes.
This would be the topic of the original post,
follow rashad, or his message?  i.e follow Quran alone or his 2.5% charity  etc

You are ignoring Khalifa's own claim of his primary role as a messenger coming to purify by removing 9:128-129, which is the basis of his of messengership and hence the topic. This is why you are evasive and can't address the 70 facts that Khalifa presented in his Appendix 24. You can continue to be evasive if you like but your heart will continue to harbor doubt about those 70 facts. It is best that you face reality head on courageously. Don't worry what is the worse that can happen? :)

Peace,

Ayman