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The First Creation

Started by Pazuzu, September 16, 2011, 04:24:12 PM

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mirjamnur

salam
here an other translation from the word nefs [urlhttp://www.archive.org/stream/TafsirUlAsad/Tafsir-ul-asadTheMessageOfTheQuranMohammedAsad#page/n150/mode/1up/search/4.1][/url]
(page 255)

Sidi

Salam Pazuzu,

We were spawn but evolution is definitely out.


The Quran confirms that we were all living in God's Kingdom before we were brought into this world. Although this is our first and only life on planet earth yet it is not our first existence. We were put to death and reborn into this life on earth thru the wombs of our mothers.


67:1-2"Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all kingship, and He is Omnipotent. The One who created DEATH and LIFE for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving"


Since nothing in the Quran is a coincidence, and since God is the Most precise in expressing and delivering any truth, we cannot overlook the order in which the words "The One who created DEATH and LIFE.....". The placing of the word "death" before the word "life" indicates that we were put to death before we were brought to this life on earth, hence we must have been alive before we came to this world.

Further proof from The Quran:


40:11"They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"


Sometime, in this previous existence, a feud arose in the Heavenly Society:


38:67-69"Say, "Here is awesome news. That you are totally oblivious to. I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society."


In this feud where Iblis was banished from paradise just after the creation of the first mankind - SPAWN FROM THE EARTH. Subsequently, an incident happend.......


2:38-39"We said, "Go down therefrom, ALL OF YOU. When guidance comes to you from Me, those who follow My guidance will have no fear, nor will they grieve. As for those who disbelieve and reject our revelations, they will be dwellers of Hell, wherein they abide forever."


And ALLAH made a covenant with Adam and ALL of us.......


[2:37] Then, Adam received from his Lord words, whereby He redeemed him. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful.

7:172"Recall that your Lord summoned all the DECENDENTS of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves: "Am I not your LORD?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."

[5:7] Remember GOD's blessing upon you, and His covenant that He covenanted with you: you said, "We hear and we obey." You shall observe GOD; GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.


Consequently, the first death ended our life in the previous life which was in God's Kingdom and not here on Earth.


Salam / Peace

Jafar

Oh my goodness, human born from an egg planted in soil??  :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
And I assumed the egg was planted in Yemen too??

Salam / Peace

huruf

This thread is very old, but since so much of substance has been written in it and I see nouse in writing it again, I would like to have comments con hte las questions by Sidi if anybody feels up to it-

Another thing is the strife in Yemen. There seems to be an imperial thrust to destroy as much of human history as possible. Any history that is older than the last half an hour in general... Whatever is buried in Yemenn is endangered.

Salaam 

Pazuzu


ٍٍSalam, huruf

Quote There seems to be an imperial thrust to destroy as much of human history as possible.

Who benefits from this the most?  When you see, for example, a bunch of  ISIS idiots destroying the artifacts of Iraq, I think the answer is very obvious:   

1) The so-called "State of Israel":  an entity built on a religious lie. And they know this very well. Deep down, they know that they have no basis for their existence in the region.  Therefore, they want to wipe out those testaments in Iraq, written in stone, which will expose them. They destroy the large pieces (which cannot be moved), and they steal the smaller artifacts and sell them in the black market, or put them on display in the museums of Europe, where people can look at them from afar, and not think too deeply about their true nature. I have even read reports that they put them under the soil of Palestine, in order to "discover" them there in the future.

2) The Wahabi state they call "Saudi Arabia": what is this state? It has no cultural depth at all. Ruled by a family of mental retards who have no constitution to speak of, no civil law, and no culture other than the Petro-Dollar and sitting around feast tables of rice and meat. There is a psychological inferiority complex the Wahhabis have with all the countries around them that actually have a historical and cultural depth (Iraq-Syria-Yemen). These countries must be destroyed, they must be maintained in a state of strife and internal warfare for all eternity, their culture must be obliterated, in order for the world's attention to be diverted from the real issue that continues to gnaw at the consciousness of the Saudis: that they have no history, and no real cultural depth. The only thing they desperately cling to is a cube-shaped room, 11 meters in length, covered with a piece of black cloth, which their ancestors claimed is the House of God. This, and their filthy Petro-Dollar is the only thing that sustains the life of pomp, whoring and prostitution that their princes want to maintain.

Do not fall for their propaganda, when they say that they want to "save Yemen" from the spread of Persian influence. This is only a cover used to conceal their true intention: to mask their false history by destroying all the centers of real civilization around them.


In order for the Gulf countries to continue to exist, and for their Petro-Dollar to be sustained, and for them to continue building their sky-scrapers and towers, they must turn Iraq, the Levant, and Yemen into a hell.

But God is watching, and he is preparing a surprise for them. They can plan and scheme all they want, but they cannot fool humanity forever.

Peace.

A.W

Salaam Pazuzu,

How do you interpret the two verses: 55:14 and 55:15?

I agree with your article. But regarding the jinn, I am not so sure.

Let's say the jinn aren't a separate creation/species/creature. Then why should they be separate from "insaan" and created from a different substance as highlighted in the Quran?

runninglikezebras

Peace,

Not sure if this has been mentioned before in this thread.  I thought it was missing in the OP so here it is:

78:8 And we created you in pairs.
51:49 And of everything We created pairs; perhaps you will remember.

Now, when this universe was created according to big bang theory there was a crucial early element called deuterium (heavy hydrogen) which played a crucial role in the evolution of this universe. 

You can read more about it's role here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium#Deuterium_and_Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis

How does this element relate to those verses about pairs?  The nucleus of deuterium consists of an exact pair called a deuteron, consisting of exactly one proton and one neutron.  The entire shape of our universe today was decided by those initial pairs in the really early stages of big bang.  Without those early pairs of protons and neutrons our sun would not exist, stars wouldn't exist like they do today.  Without those stars needing the right amount of helium, we wouldn't exist.  Life wouldn't exist.

I discovered this during my search of finding explicit references to chemical elements in Quran: this is just one in a longer list.

Another interesting fact: trees are one of the very few organisms that are capable of creating carbon from photons.  The bark, stem of a tree is largely produced from the photons/sunlight it receives.  Humans consist for large part out of carbon.  This carbon we are made of is either from plants/trees, created by photosynthesis or from earlier occurrences of carbon that existed since the early stages of this universe.  It's more likely the first assumption is most correct.  Is it coincidence any place that allows life in Quran is described as having trees?  I don't think so.

So to summarize this in a chronology, very simplified:

initial big bang -> events leading to nucleosynthesis requiring the pairs of deuterium -> allowing formation of stars -> allowing photosynthesis -> allowing organic soil -> allowing creation of man requiring the carbon produced by photosynthesis of organic life.
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

runninglikezebras

Quote from: huruf on April 25, 2015, 05:31:47 AM
This thread is very old, but since so much of substance has been written in it and I see nouse in writing it again, I would like to have comments con hte las questions by Sidi if anybody feels up to it-

Another thing is the strife in Yemen. There seems to be an imperial thrust to destroy as much of human history as possible. Any history that is older than the last half an hour in general... Whatever is buried in Yemenn is endangered.

Salaam

I disagree with Sidi's comments.  I basically think the logic he/she is applying is flawed.

Quote from: Sidi on March 04, 2012, 07:23:54 AM
Salam Pazuzu,

We were spawn but evolution is definitely out.


The Quran confirms that we were all living in God's Kingdom before we were brought into this world. Although this is our first and only life on planet earth yet it is not our first existence. We were put to death and reborn into this life on earth thru the wombs of our mothers.


67:1-2"Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all kingship, and He is Omnipotent. The One who created DEATH and LIFE for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving"


Since nothing in the Quran is a coincidence, and since God is the Most precise in expressing and delivering any truth, we cannot overlook the order in which the words "The One who created DEATH and LIFE.....". The placing of the word "death" before the word "life" indicates that we were put to death before we were brought to this life on earth, hence we must have been alive before we came to this world.

Further proof from The Quran:


40:11"They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"


Sometime, in this previous existence, a feud arose in the Heavenly Society:


It's speculation.  Quran does not say death THEN life.  It says death and life.  The understanding of what that feud in heavenly society meant to the chronology of first creation is based on rashad's misunderstanding of basically the entire genesis story in Quran.  Pure speculation.



Evolution is definitely not out.  True we were created more than likely not in this world.  But the logical flaw in his thesis is the premature conclusion evolution is out.  The substance we were created from is definitely phsyical.  Therefor it must be an ingredient that was extracted from a physical world.  Leaving evolution entirely plausible.  The point where this world is created is not exactly specified in the quranic chronology of first creation.  But logical deduction tells you when Adam was created from clay, surely there must have been a physical world already that was evolving already before mans creation, a place where this physical substance required to create Adam from, existed.  This physical substance that created Adam can only come from a physical world already existing, more than likely undergoing evolutionary processes before man even existed.

This is exactly what Iblis refers to when states being created from fire and being superior to Adam.  Iblis is not created from something physical.  Iblis exists longer than any physical world.  There was no physical ingredient required to create Iblis.  Implying no physical world existing.  This is why Iblis feels superior.

Peace
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

Pazuzu

QuoteSalaam Pazuzu,

How do you interpret the two verses: 55:14 and 55:15?

I agree with your article. But regarding the jinn, I am not so sure.

Let's say the jinn aren't a separate creation/species/creature. Then why should they be separate from "insaan" and created from a different substance as highlighted in the Quran?


You are now touching upon a very delicate and technical issue, which I spent quite some time looking into, a few months  back. I will definately elaborate more regarding this, but for now, I can say with a great degree of confidence, that  the terms jan (جان) and jin (جن) are not necessarily synonymous. The first refers to a particular type of being which is incorporeal (as in Iblees), and which existed on this planet before the appearence of humankind. The second term is a quality / adjective used to describe several things, among them beings (human or otherwise) who are in very high positions or rank, and who work  "behind the curtain" (so to speak), such as the unseen rulers or forces which drive human societies, and whom are being worshipped and served all over the planet today, instead of God. When you look closely and scrutinize the accuracy of the Koranic terms, you will find the following parallels:

jin vs ins (not capitalized): often used in the context of urbanites / common people vs non-urbanite / secretive cast (who often have skills, abilities or knowledge that are not known by commoners.

Insan vs Jan (capitalized): the context of two creations, one from clay (earthly material) and one of non-corporeal nature


The difference is subtle, but if you pay close attention, you will see it. Iblees is a Jan (in terms of his nature), but he is also a jin (in terms of description) meaning a very high ranking malaika who had a secret desire to rebel, and was hence cast out from the grace of Allah.

Inshallah, I will have some more information regarding this matter, in the coming days.


Regarding the creation of humankind from the clay of the earth, this is in line with what the Koran calls أساطير الأولين.


Sadly, when people think of of the Arabic term أسطورة , we wrongly assume it is a myth. Also, for lack of a better term, it is rendered as "legend". But if you analyze the term, you will find that it is equivalent to "istoria" (Latin) or "history" (English). The difference is that a "legend" is a romanticised and symbolic scripture which is based on a real (historic or scientific) fact. The reason it is rendered in "legendary" form is to make it stick in the memory of the generations. It becomes like a kind of folklore whose origin is very much real, but drowned in antiquity. In such "legends", nations become symbolized with single persons, and natural phenomena become beasts or "demons". For example, the Arabian legend of Adnan vs Qahtan is a symbolic story which  "legendizes" the steuggle between the nomads and the sedentary people. Also, the Mesopotamian story of the taming of the great water dragon named Tiamat by a divine being or hero, at the dawn of time, is a legend which symbolizes the malaika (annunaki), under the command of the One God, taming the great salt sea around the point of origin, to make the earth more fitting for the creation of humans. It is a romanticized version of a very real historic event. It is wrong to discard of it as a myth.

If you read the أساطير of creation of the early peoples, whether in Arabia, Mesopotamia, Africa, even in parts of Europe, you will find an eye-opening theme which is common to all, and often recurring: the Male God of the sky impregnated the Mother Earth with his water, and their children burst forth from her womb. In ancient "Semitic" terms, we find the term baal بعل which is used to denote the male / master or lord, as well as - among other things - the water of the male (semen). The rain is the baal which impregnated Mother Earth (look up her name in the Babylonian legends), and their first children, which did not yet have the "Spirit" in them, burst like grass from her womb. Later, in a future stage, this "earth embryo" became inside the female womb, thus anouncing a new phase of creation, which is the union of the male / female gametes.

The Koranic version of the creation story very clearly deviates from the Old Testament version, and is hence closer to the legends of the ancients. It is clearly describing two stages of creation: birth from the Earth directy (the universal birth refered to as النشأة الأولى), which took place millions of years ago in the volcanic regions bordering the Tihama (Tiamat), and the current birth from the womb of the female. There will of course be the نشأة الأخرة (on the Era of Resurrection), which will be the same as the first creation.

This is what the classical interpreters failed to grasp, because they have been reading the Koran through OLd Testament spectacles, and deliberately twisting the meaning of the clear Koranic signs to make them fit into the mold of the OT. They refused to even consider teh possibility that the Koran offers an independant version which is more in line with the early legends, and not with what the Jewish scribes corrupted.

Regards.

huruf

I do not know how to put up an image. It is of egyptian religion, or stories. It depicts Nut the godess of sky and Geb the earth God, which I have always found unusual, because it does differently from others. The same as the war God which is a lioness.

I may be being a devil's advocate, but there is this aya on Maryam3.37 it says:
فَتَقَبَّلَهَا رَ‌بُّهَا بِقَبُولٍ حَسَنٍ وَأَنبَتَهَا نَبَاتًا حَسَنًا وَكَفَّلَهَا

It is exactly the same expresi?n as in 71.71
وَاللَّهُ أَنْبَتَكُمْ مِنَ الْأَرْضِ نَبَاتًا

"'And God has caused you to grow out of the earth in [gradual] growth; and thereafter He will return you to it [in death]: (17

So while I do not deny the inside the earth birth and growth of the antecessors of bashar, I think there must be something more to the expression as it is used both with Mryam and with the humans. Of ocurse in 71.17 it is clearly stated that they grow out of the earth, which is not said of Maryam.

At any rate at think in the Qura'nic history of human creation there is more to it than a simple two-stage creation and upgrading. The many "nutf" that appear in Qur'an in that connection are systematically and unhesitatingly translated as semen or sperm as if nothing else in the universe could come as nutf, do not seem to me to be necessarily each and every time semen or sperm. I am not sure that they are that even once, not without a more careful and further analysis. There are so many different expressions concerning tin, and other varieties which are variedly translated as mud, earth, dust, etc. And it seems that they should refer to the same thing, but are we sure of that? I doubt it very much.
May the only thing clear is that out of the earth step, because with be with the mud and the many nutfs, the thing gets really muddled.

Salaam