Author Topic: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?  (Read 1101 times)

oazabir

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21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« on: September 04, 2011, 08:55:22 AM »
The common understanding of 21:30 is that it is talking about Big Bang:

Quote
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? (21:30)
Couple of reasons why I believe it is not talking about the Big Bang.

1) Here it says The Earth, l-ardi, which always means our planet. It is not just the heavens which were joined with our earth, but all planets, everything.
2) The heaves, which is commonly believed as the universes, aren't separated from the earth. The earth is inside the heavens today. If it said "the heavens were joined entity" it would have included the earth as well. Here it specifically says the earth. Most of the places in the Quran, it says "the heavens and the earth". As if heaven and earth are two separate entities.

Now the reasons why I think it is talking about the atmosphere are:

a) During the early development of the earth, the atmosphere gases O2, N2, CO2 etc were all mixed inside earth's early state. So, the atmosphere was separated out of earth.
b) The separation happened through comet impacts, asteroid impact, large chunk of earth getting separated out, volcanic eruptions and so on. All violent activities causing the earth to spit out the atmosphere.
c) Atmosphere has multiple layers - thus the plural "heavens" applies.

OPF

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2011, 08:59:54 AM »
Peace,

That's true and quite a nice way of looking at it. However my contention is that the solar system & hence heaven/earth arose from a nebula, not quite "one joined entity".

Whereas there is no question whatsoever as to the origin of the universe if the big bang is truth - it could only have been one joined entity.

This verse could easily refer to both at the same time as well. No problem with that either.

oazabir

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 09:32:42 AM »
Problem is if we assume this verse is talking about Big Bang, then we have to conclude the following:

the heavens = the entire universe.
the earth = our planet.

Thus our planet, earth is separated from the universe. It cannot be true.

Moreover, there are two verses which further indicates l-samawai, the heavens, cannot be the entire universe:

It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. 2:29

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly." And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. 41:11-12

Here the construction of the seven heavens is surely happening after the creation of earth. Thus the heavens cannot be the entire universe.



oazabir

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 12:28:12 PM »

Also Allah asked "the heaven" and the earth to come together. That means "the heaven" and earth were separated and they were asked to come together (gravity?). And after that Allah made the heavens seven heavens.

When we look at both 41:11-12 and 21:30 it makes sense:

First the heaven (singular, atmospheric gases like H, He) and the earth (the solid mass) was separated. They came together due to gravity and thus the solid mass of earth got it's first atmosphere where there was only one layer. Then Allah has made the single heaven into seven heavens = seven layers in atmosphere. This requires splitting materials from the earth and spread it into the heavens so that Oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide etc can get into the atmosphere and build the seven layers.



The Sardar

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2019, 10:18:34 AM »
I know this is old but this is interesting.

Mazhar

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2019, 03:59:44 PM »
The common understanding of 21:30 is that it is talking about Big Bang:
Couple of reasons why I believe it is not talking about the Big Bang.

1) Here it says The Earth, l-ardi, which always means our planet. It is not just the heavens which were joined with our earth, but all planets, everything.
2) The heaves, which is commonly believed as the universes, aren't separated from the earth. The earth is inside the heavens today. If it said "the heavens were joined entity" it would have included the earth as well. Here it specifically says the earth. Most of the places in the Quran, it says "the heavens and the earth". As if heaven and earth are two separate entities.

Now the reasons why I think it is talking about the atmosphere are:

a) During the early development of the earth, the atmosphere gases O2, N2, CO2 etc were all mixed inside earth's early state. So, the atmosphere was separated out of earth.
b) The separation happened through comet impacts, asteroid impact, large chunk of earth getting separated out, volcanic eruptions and so on. All violent activities causing the earth to spit out the atmosphere.
c) Atmosphere has multiple layers - thus the plural "heavens" applies.

There was no "Big Bang" at the time of creation of the Skies and the Earth.

Seven layers of atmosphere is a separate subject mentioned in Qur'an.


http://haqeeqat.pk/AtmosphereSevenTracks.htm

Mazhar

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 04:12:16 PM »
I know this is old but this is interesting.

Recap: A brief synopsis of the process of creation of our universe unfolded by the Grand Qur’ān:

(a)  Earth and all other material inserted and quantified in/on it was created in four days, a period of universe external to under construction universe. Anchors - mountains were inserted, also Water in measured quantity was placed in it. These materials seem to be imported ones into our universe.

(b)  After this and lapse of unspecified time, attention was paid to the Sky which already existed in gaseous state.

(c)  Sky (Gaseous) and Earth were "asked" to develop a relationship either of love/attraction or hatred/repulsion. Both (feminine) opted the relationship of attraction which resulted in "sewing" of the Sky and Earth without any cleavage/gap/aperture/vacuum. This state has been described by the word {رَتْقاً}.

(d)    Sky was divided into seven parts, one above another one, exactly fitting in each other. This partitioning and assigning of specific task for each of them took two days, a period of universe external to under construction universe. Thus the total period consumed in the construction of our universe matter and material was equal to six days of some external universe because internal time of the proposed universe had not as yet begun. Everything  was set and placed in equations to set and maintain the balance which afterwards became evident, displayed to view.

(e)    The "سمك" ceiling of the Sky was raised upwards. The Sky and Earth were parted/disjointed. This was the beginning of a new universe. It created simultaneously the Time of our Universe. The first night was rendered darkened and after that the light and heat of the day was brought out.

(f)     After the discharge of heat and light on the first bright day, the Earth of newly constructed universe was expanded - stretched.

(g)    Neither the above process of creation of our universe could make any body infer that the creation of universe was from zero volume nor that it was the result of some "Bing Bang". Grand Qur'an has nowhere informed the humanity that there was a "Bing Bang" at the time of creation. But there will certainly be a "Bing Bang" to be heard by people when the Time of  our universe is to be brought to a halt which we will study next to find the answer to question: Will the universe come to an end, and if so, how?

http://haqeeqat.pk/UniverseOrigin.htm

imrankhawaja

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 11:14:52 PM »
moreover the roots used in 21:30 cant possibly checked through crosscheck method as we know quran only used both roots once, and thats the backbone of the claim..


1 (ف ت ق)
2 (ر ت ق)

dictionary meanings are something like (sew/unsew) of cloth (joined/disjoined) of something etc..

proper meanings of those words clear the picture of what author is actually saying...



The Sardar

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Re: 21:30 Is it Big Bang or Atmosphere development?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2019, 04:58:51 AM »
moreover the roots used in 21:30 cant possibly checked through crosscheck method as we know quran only used both roots once, and thats the backbone of the claim..


1 (ف ت ق)
2 (ر ت ق)

dictionary meanings are something like (sew/unsew) of cloth (joined/disjoined) of something etc..

proper meanings of those words clear the picture of what author is actually saying...

1:

Fa-Ta-Qaf (ف ت ق) = to cleave asunder, split, break, disjoin, disunite, rend apart.

fataqa vb. (1) perf. act. 21:30

LL, V6, p: 115, 116  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=ftq


2:

Ra-Ta-Qaf (ر ت ق) = to close, be joined together. ratqan - closed up, single entity.

rataqa vb. (1) n.vb. m. acc. 21:30 (ratqan)

LL, V3, p: 193, 194  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=rtq