Author Topic: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd  (Read 2165 times)

KDC501

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The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« on: August 25, 2011, 10:33:48 AM »
For couple of weeks now I wasn't 100% convinced in  timing of the Night of Decree. Even though I said on a previous post a few weeks ago that the Night of Decree most likely had to be during the longest nights of the year(December 21st or 22nd   of each year)There wasn't really any hard evidence besides the simple calculation of Jesus’ Conception in the Quran as proof . This calculation still did not answer one or two questions. For example people could still rightly argue that  the appearance of Angel Gabriel to Mary around the month of December doesn't prove unanimously that December 21st (or 22nd )is the said Night the Decree( the proper time of fasting) . However now the believers ( and those who astute in the Scripture ) have another piece of evidence…..


Last night while I was sitting down watching television  a strange idea occurred to me. If  I believe that December 21st (or 22nd ) was the time in which the Messengers received Messages from the Spirit( whom I believe to be Gabriel) and the Angels then perhaps Dr.Rashad Khalifa received his messengership around that specific time.  Note that for the several weeks that I had believed in this interpretation (that the Night of Decree had to be during the longest night) it had never occurred to me to look and check to see exactly when the previous messenger received messengership.

To my utter surprise it turns out that Dr.Rashad Khalifa did indeed receive messengership on December 21st 1971…..The longest night during the year(in the northern hemisphere)

Could this be a coincidence?


A question only for the code 19 believers: Am I the first to recognize this or did anyone else notice this strange coincidence???

Well after this knowledge was made know to me I was at rest. I'm now 100% certain  that the timing of the fast (and the Night of Decree) has be without a doubt  during longest nights of the year (December 21st or 22nd of each year)



Peace,

Kevin








Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 01:21:49 PM »
Peace KDC501,

So prior to Rashad Khalifa's claim, how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time? The only piece of "evidence" would be Jesus' alleged time of conception, in which there is no indication that the Spirit/Angels were there at the time, and in which the time can vary within 1-2 months (at the least) which is not sound evidence for the Winter Solstice being the Night of Decree.

Also, care to provide a valid source for this date being the time of his claim?

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 01:30:18 PM »
Peace,

Just another thought. I don't see why people are so stuck on believing that the Night of Decree has to be the longest night of the year. What would be the purpose of this? All traditionalist thinking aside, there is no reason for all of this time. Are the Spirit/Angels bound by our time that they need(ed) the longest time? Do we need to do anything more than reflect on this night, and would it matter if we did it for some 8-10 hours as opposed to 1, etc.? It makes no sense in light of Quran-alone thinking.

Also, if it was so easy as thinking it must be the longest night, why wasn't this ideology adopted long ago by a big group of traditionalists?

May Allah guide us all.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Layth

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 01:44:34 PM »
Salam Eikon,

The conclusion that it is the longest night of the year has to do with the characteristic of God that He taught us, which is His "mercy". If God were to select a night in which to bless mankind with peace and guidance, then it goes without saying that He would chose the "longer" rather than the "shorter". And, since the birth of Jesus as you said places us back to the period of Nov-Dec-Jan, then the choice falls to the one in which God's mercy would be greatest? Answer, the one with the longest night.   
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

KDC501

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 03:29:39 PM »
Peace KDC501,

So prior to Rashad Khalifa's claim, how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time? The only piece of "evidence" would be Jesus' alleged time of conception, in which there is no indication that the Spirit/Angels were there at the time, and in which the time can vary within 1-2 months (at the least) which is not sound evidence for the Winter Solstice being the Night of Decree.

Also, care to provide a valid source for this date being the time of his claim?

May peace be with you.


If you read Appendix 2 –God’s Messenger of the Convenant  in Dr.Khalifa’s Translation you will see the date in which he claimed  to have received messengership.


“During my Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and before sunrise on Tuesday, Zul-Hijjah 3, 1391, December 21st , 1971, I , Rashad Khalifa, the soul, the real person , not the body, was taken to some place in the universe where I was introduced to all the prophets as God’s Messenger of the Convenant…..”


In regards to your question “how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time?” My answer to that question is that people long ago are not as stupid/dumb as some may think they were. If the Jews (and people of other races and religions) back then could calculate the exact timing of there own festivals then I believe the believers would have been able to do the same.

In any case I firmly believe that December 21st (or 22nd) have to be without a doubt the correct dates for the Night of Decree(The time in which the Quran was revealed and the proper time of fasting). Those who are aware of the Scripture cannot now posses doubt about its time. Now we have the smoking gun. No one can say that this is Dr.Rashad Khalifa's teaching since during his time he did not believe(not came up with the interpretation as yet) that the Night of Decree was on December 21st or the 22nd.

As I  have said previously in my posts , Dr.Rashad Khalifa was still learning the Quran. The studies that exist after his death are just his own interpretations of the Quran. Some i believe to be accurate and others i believe to be wrong. But just because i believe that some of his work is incorrect does not mean that he wasn't a messenger of God. As far as I'm concerned there is not a single verse in the Quran that says that messenger's are teachers of the Quran Anyone who says or believes otherwise must be reading from some other book that I am not aware of. The Book that I read on a daily basis says that God  is the teacher and not his messenger. For example I'm 100% sure that Prophet Muhammad  could not have known all the interpretation's of the Quran. There are some parts he could have never guessed correctly it's interpretation(eg. the splitting of the moon and other prophecies, the numerical and scientific signs in the Quran). 



 
Peace,

Kevin.



Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 06:18:25 PM »
Salam Eikon,

The conclusion that it is the longest night of the year has to do with the characteristic of God that He taught us, which is His "mercy". If God were to select a night in which to bless mankind with peace and guidance, then it goes without saying that He would chose the "longer" rather than the "shorter".

Peace Layth,

I understand this is the belief behind it, but I don't find it to be a valid one. May I ask, what do you believe a Muslim should do on this particular night? Do you think we should stay up all night, and we will receive some type of upgrade? Or that we will experience another realm of peace or more guidance if we ask/study on this night than on any other night (which would surely IMO mean we should pull the all-nighter to take advantage of it)? What is the significance behind this length? Like I said, are the Spirit/Angels bound by our time that they need(ed) the longest night? Do we need to do anything more than reflect on this night, and would it matter if we did it for some 8-10 hours as opposed to 1, etc.? It makes no sense in light of Quran-alone thinking. The length of the night does not matter, it is the quality. If you believe we should be up all night to experience this length, then I don't find it to be quite merciful for those who will be tired and groggy the following morning for farming and work in general.

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And, since the birth of Jesus as you said places us back to the period of Nov-Dec-Jan, then the choice falls to the one in which God's mercy would be greatest? Answer, the one with the longest night.

I'm guessing we agree to disagree on this point, since I've made mine before and you hold this one. But again, if the Spirit/Angels make the connection, then there is no evidence that they were around at the time of Jesus' conception (even if it was in December), as they were there for the announcement to Mary (time not indicated), but not at the time of conception as far as we know. There is substantial evidence that there was no "immaculate conception" (http://www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm), therefore the link is broken as the announcement featuring the Spirit/Angels could have been at any time.

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 06:40:04 PM »

If you read Appendix 2 –God’s Messenger of the Convenant  in Dr.Khalifa’s Translation you will see the date in which he claimed  to have received messengership.


“During my Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and before sunrise on Tuesday, Zul-Hijjah 3, 1391, December 21st , 1971, I , Rashad Khalifa, the soul, the real person , not the body, was taken to some place in the universe where I was introduced to all the prophets as God’s Messenger of the Convenant…..”

Peace Kevin,

Thanks for the source. The information is interesting. How do you suppose Rashad Khalifa met all of the prophets of Allah when they are dead and awaiting Judgement Day? This would defy Allah's laws. Perhaps he was trying to be in line with the traditional belief about Muhammad's ascension to heaven, which is just that, traditional belief. There is no Quranic proof of it, much like there is no Quranic proof of the claims of Rashad.

Do you not also think that if Rashad had this same belief in the Winter Solstice, and had an agenda (or was mentally ill), that it would be rather convenient to pick this date as his miracle? If I find something rarely known or unknown about the Quran, and would like to be glorified for it, I could easily pick December 21st as my miracle date too. It's not solid proof at all. But this is besides the bigger point, I find his account of this alleged journey to be strange.

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In regards to your question “how do you believe Muslims would have known the Night of Decree was at this time?” My answer to that question is that people long ago are not as stupid/dumb as some may think they were. If the Jews (and people of other races and religions) back then could calculate the exact timing of there own festivals then I believe the believers would have been able to do the same.

The Winter Solstice is a well-known period and has been for a very, very long time. It's difficult to believe that no significant number has considered it before as the Night of Decree (probably because there is no valid reason to). Also, there is no real calculation behind it. It's just a suggestion that such a night as the Night of Decree should be the longest. But what would be the purpose for this length? There is none at all as Allah is not bound by our time to need the longest night.

Also, my original question was that without Rashad's claim that he received his miracle on this date, there is way too much doubt. So I was asking, without this knowledge, how would Muslims prior have been convinced of this date as much as you are now?

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In any case I firmly believe that December 21st (or 22nd) have to be without a doubt the correct dates for the Night of Decree(The time in which the Quran was revealed and the proper time of fasting). Those who are aware of the Scripture cannot now posses doubt about its time. Now we have the smoking gun. No one can say that this is Dr.Rashad Khalifa's teaching since during his time he did not believe(not came up with the interpretation as yet) that the Night of Decree was on December 21st or the 22nd.

It is still only a matter of opinion. There are plenty of valid reasons to believe otherwise. Let's not set such sturdy bars.

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 07:36:29 PM »
Peace Kevin,

Apparently in 1971, the Winter Solstice just so happened to be on December 22nd. It is commonly on the 21st, but occasionally happens on the 22nd as well.

This dismantles your theory. Rashad Khalifa claimed to have had his miracle on December 21, 1971. And if one believes that he may have chose this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory, it clearly shows that he fumbled.

Source: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=1950&n=151

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

KDC501

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 09:24:12 PM »
Peace Kevin,

Apparently in 1971, the Winter Solstice just so happened to be on December 22nd. It is commonly on the 21st, but occasionally happens on the 22nd as well.

This dismantles your theory. Rashad Khalifa claimed to have had his miracle on December 21, 1971. And if one believes that he may have chose this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory, it clearly shows that he fumbled.

Source: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=1950&n=151

May peace be with you.


No it doesn't dismantle the theory at all. You are under the illusion that during the year 1971 that people were 100% correct in calculating the winter solstice period. However if you were to ask any astronomer they will tell you that all calendar calculations are APPROXIMATIONS . Not in million years could any calendar calculation could have been 100% accurate. No one can prove otherwise.

“The Seasons Calculator calculates the approximate time and date of the March equinox, the June solstice, the September equinox and the December solstice…..”

In regards to this other issue on “Dr.Khalifa may have chosen this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory” …is very eccentric and irrational thinking. It also shows that you barely read anything about the ‘submitters group’ Dr.Rashad Khalifa believed in the traditional month of Ramadan that 90% of the ‘muslims’ believe in today. The Winter Solstice theory is a new interpretation that started AFTER his death and not before. Also it was not developed by ‘submitters’( who I believe have somewhat strayed from the Way) but another group. If you want to know more ask Layth. His group I believe is responsible for the Winter Solstice theory and NOT THE SUBMITTERS.

Peace,

Kevin.

KDC501

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 06:17:40 AM »
Peace Kevin,

Thanks for the source. The information is interesting. How do you suppose Rashad Khalifa met all of the prophets of Allah when they are dead and awaiting Judgement Day? This would defy Allah's laws.


God's servants never die:

3:169 Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions.

2:154 Do not say of those who are killed in the sake of God that they are dead; no, they are alive but you do not perceive.

8:24 O you who acknowledge, answer the call of God and His messenger when he calls you to what will grant you life. Know that God comes between a person and his heart, and that to Him you will be gathered.

44:56 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.


Do not carelessly jump to conclusion's before carefully studying the Quran.
20:114 Then High above all is God, the King, the Truth. Do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is
completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

Peace,
Kevin

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 01:54:35 PM »

No it doesn't dismantle the theory at all. You are under the illusion that during the year 1971 that people were 100% correct in calculating the winter solstice period. However if you were to ask any astronomer they will tell you that all calendar calculations are APPROXIMATIONS . Not in million years could any calendar calculation could have been 100% accurate. No one can prove otherwise.

“The Seasons Calculator calculates the approximate time and date of the March equinox, the June solstice, the September equinox and the December solstice…..”

Peace Kevin,

I am actually really surprised that this is your faith in science (and math to a degree). Yes, in science there is always a margin of error left as nothing can be 100% accurate. Hence why you see many products claiming to only be 99.99% effective and so on. So granted even with cosmic calculations there will be some room of error, how big do you believe the margin of error is here? A 24-hour margin of error? 12-hour? 1 hour? A few minutes? A few seconds?

Do you honestly believe that they were not able to accurately calculate the Winter Solstice down to within the day? Especially for only 40 years ago? Do you have any idea how many cultures, nations and civilizations rely on the Winter Solstice and have agreed unanimously upon the day, and have been sure of it for decades without any dispute? That website I provided has it down to the minute! Do you believe they would even have the guts to name a day if there was THAT much room for error? They would have just said, "Towards the end of December" or "Approximately December 20-25" if there was that much uncertainty.

Let's be real here. If you told any astronomer they were mistaken to the point of being an entire day off, especially because of this flimsy theory based on an alleged messenger's claim, they would probably find it very amusing - with all due respect. Every nation has agreed on this date, including the Hong Kong Observatory (http://www.hko.gov.hk/gts/time/calendar/text/T1971e.txt) in which their people celebrate the Winter Solstice every year and need to know these exact dates.

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In regards to this other issue on “Dr.Khalifa may have chosen this date to try and be in line with the Winter Solstice theory” …is very eccentric and irrational thinking. It also shows that you barely read anything about the ‘submitters group’ Dr.Rashad Khalifa believed in the traditional month of Ramadan that 90% of the ‘muslims’ believe in today. The Winter Solstice theory is a new interpretation that started AFTER his death and not before. Also it was not developed by ‘submitters’( who I believe have somewhat strayed from the Way) but another group. If you want to know more ask Layth. His group I believe is responsible for the Winter Solstice theory and NOT THE SUBMITTERS.

I disagree that it is eccentric and irrational. I actually find it quite rational to sometimes test your own beliefs, or the beliefs of others, by thinking of the opposing possibilities especially when it's something as important as verifying a messenger of God. Perhaps you are right, and Rashad didn't know about this date. I wasn't saying it was surely his agenda to forge this date. But I'm saying just because the dates align, be skeptical that there could be a hidden reason behind it all. He could have had the notion in mind and planned it so, or people after could have forged the date (it wouldn't be the only time something suspicious was altered in one of his books, feel free to request this source from me separately as this discussion isn't really around his work), or it could just be a coincidence. Like I said before, if it's as easy as saying the longest night should be the Night of Decree, it's not hard for people to have thought of the idea before. Either way, this is besides the entire discussion. The point is, the dates don't align, and the "immaculate conception" isn't supported by the Quran, thus the Winter Solstice theory isn't logical.

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 02:08:59 PM »

God's servants never die:

3:169 Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions.

2:154 Do not say of those who are killed in the sake of God that they are dead; no, they are alive but you do not perceive.

Peace Kevin,

These verses specifically refer to those who are killed in the sake of God. ie. Martyrs. But even so, do you believe the "alive" means they were "killed", but were instantly zoomed up to heaven where they are awake and hanging out with angels and God? This would defeat the whole purpose of Judgement Day, where Allah makes it clear that we are going to be risen from our rest. Would one not have to be unconscious/immobile first in order for this to happen? The verses are as if to say that those who were killed in the sake of God will be granted life for their honourable duties. Their life will continue, meaning they are "alive" still.

This idea is actually supported by the verse you gave below. By your ideology, if these martyrs are still technically awake enough to interact with others (before Judgement Day), it would contradict this following verse which shows life will be granted.

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8:24 O you who acknowledge, answer the call of God and His messenger when he calls you to what will grant you life. Know that God comes between a person and his heart, and that to Him you will be gathered.

Quote
44:56 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.

Only on the Day of Judgement can we resurrect, then be judged on whether we are given life or death.

Quote
Do not carelessly jump to conclusion's before carefully studying the Quran.
20:114 Then High above all is God, the King, the Truth. Do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is
completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

Agreed. One should carefully study before jumping to conclusions.

May Allah increase us all in knowledge.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 02:43:38 PM »
Peace,

Either way, the whole Rashad Khalifa issue is very secondary to the Winter Solstice theory. Although I proved he was not granted messengership on the Winter Solstice of 1971, if one wants to continue believing he was, it still does not support the already flimsy theory any more.

The connection is the Spirit/Angels. They were there at the announcement of Mary bearing the Messiah, which could have been at any time. There is NO proof that they were present at the time of Jesus' conception. The Quran does not support the "immaculate conception" (http://www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm). Therefore there is no evident link between the Night of Decree and Jesus' conception.

AND EVEN SO, if one wants to continue to believe in the "immaculate conception", that would only be one example of the Spirit/Angels coming around this approximate time, which is not solid evidence at all for something as important as the Night of Decree.

It's one big slippery slope relying on falsehood. I have no agenda or outside source making me this adamant regarding my stance on this issue, other than the fact that it is not supported by the Quran.

May peace be with you all.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Layth

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 03:14:25 PM »
Salam,

Quote
The connection is the Spirit/Angels. They were there at the announcement of Mary bearing the Messiah, which could have been at any time. There is NO proof that they were present at the time of Jesus' conception. The Quran does not support the "immaculate conception" (http://www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm). Therefore there is no evident link between the Night of Decree and Jesus' conception.

AND EVEN SO, if one wants to continue to believe in the "immaculate conception", that would only be one example of the Spirit/Angels coming around this approximate time, which is not solid evidence at all for something as important as the Night of Decree.

It's one big slippery slope relying on falsehood. I have no agenda or outside source making me this adamant regarding my stance on this issue, other than the fact that it is not supported by the Quran.

I am sorry to say that, from your posts, you are approaching this subject with a pre-determined conclusion that is blocking what is actually and very clear and simple argument (words such as "flimsy, falsehood, etc." are counterproductive).

That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" was present for the conception of Jesus is a "fact" (19:17).

That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" is sent down on the special "night of decree" is a "fact" (97:4).

That Jesus was concived around the time of Aug/Sep when dates are ripe is a "fact" (19:25).

That God is Merciful and that He encourages us to use the night more than the day for worship is a "fact" (1:1, 97:6)

Now, if you want to deny these simple facts and pretend the subject is "not clear" and that if it were so clear then others before would have worked it out, then that is your perogative...

`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2011, 04:32:45 PM »
Salam Kevin,

Your observation on RK and his "encounter" is very interesting and food for thought.

However, I would not put too much effort in defending the accuracy of his appendix as you will note he speaks of december 21 1971, yet he quotes an Arabic date (3rd zulhijja 1391) which corresponds to January 20 1972.

If he is refering to December 21 1971, then that would make the Arabic date 3rd zulqaida 1391.

Either way, there is an error in the dates.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Eikonoklastes

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2011, 05:16:51 PM »
Salam,

I am sorry to say that, from your posts, you are approaching this subject with a pre-determined conclusion that is blocking what is actually and very clear and simple argument (words such as "flimsy, falsehood, etc." are counterproductive).

Peace Layth,

With all due respect, I find this statement of yours quite unfair. Brother Kevin and I are having a discussion in which our opinions differ, so of course we will have a somewhat "pre-determined conclusion" which will be our respective opinions (which we believe in strongly). This doesn't mean it is blocking anything, as I am open-minded and will conform my beliefs to what I am convinced of as I have many times in the past. You share his view for the most part, therefore it is obvious you would see it as clear and simple and see only my words as "counterproductive". So I prefer not to be seen as just some ignorant speaker, as I do not feel my points are senseless.

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That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" is sent down on the special "night of decree" is a "fact" (97:4).

That Jesus was concived around the time of Aug/Sep when dates are ripe is a "fact" (19:25).

That God is Merciful and that He encourages us to use the night more than the day for worship is a "fact" (1:1, 97:6)

I agree with all of these. Although I believe in your second point you meant "birthed" instead of conceived. Correct?

And while the last point is true, this does not explain the significance of a long night for the Night of Decree. The only opinion that the length is significant that would make some sense is if you believe we should stay up all night to receive this special peace/guidance, which I don't believe you have answered yet. And which I don't believe there is any reason to outlined in the Quran.

But in general, I agree with these statements.

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That the Quran teaches us that the "Spirit" was present for the conception of Jesus is a "fact" (19:17).

I disagree with this being a fact. Was the Spirit there for the CONCEPTION? Or just for the ANNOUNCEMENT that Mary would bear the Messiah? There is no indication that when the Spirit made this announcement, Jesus was conceived right then and there. This is contradictory to what the Quran teaches regarding the natural processes of procreation (in which Jesus was not exempt), and to the way in which Allah works in this universe. After the Spirit announced the message, time could have passed, Mary could have got married, had intercourse with Joseph, conceived Jesus at a later time, then gave birth to him at the season of ripe dates.

I believe many are misled as the birth is mentioned shortly after in the same verse, though this does not mean time hasn't passed. As you know, this quick-series-of-lengthy-events type of explanation is in many places in the Quran. This doesn't mean time is being defied or that other processes didn't occur between them.

I know I am repeatedly posting this link (http://www.freewebs.com/nadqur/birth.htm), but I feel as if it's not being read or something. All of the assumptions that Jesus was conceived right then and there at the Spirit's announcement are logically disproved using examples and cross-references from the Quran. I don't see the point being made any more clear.

May peace be with you.
Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

KDC501

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 06:07:14 PM »
Salam Kevin,

Your observation on RK and his "encounter" is very interesting and food for thought.

However, I would not put too much effort in defending the accuracy of his appendix as you will note he speaks of december 21 1971, yet he quotes an Arabic date (3rd zulhijja 1391) which corresponds to January 20 1972.

If he is refering to December 21 1971, then that would make the Arabic date 3rd zulqaida 1391.

Either way, there is an error in the dates.


Peace Layth,

It appears that you are correct. 3rd zulhijja 1391 is on January 20th 1972. I believe he made a mistake on the Islamic date and not the Christian date. If you look at the Appendix he said that his messenger-ship occurred on a Tuesday. January 20th 1972 is on a Thursday and not a Tuesday (whilst December 21st 1971 is on a Tuesday)
 
To verify: http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/static/hegira.html

He most likely made an innocent mistake since he probably doesn’t  use an Islamic calendar often. Most Muslims I know use a Christian calendar 95% of the time. The only occasion they use an Islamic calendar is  when they need to know the timing of there Islamic practices (eg Ramadan ) Anyway just to be extra safe  I’ll send an email to the 'submitters' just to make sure.

S29

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 09:21:30 PM »
Peace,


To my utter surprise it turns out that Dr.Rashad Khalifa did indeed receive messengership on December 21st 1971…..The longest night during the year(in the northern hemisphere)

Could this be a coincidence?

Of course no coincidence that you were aroused. You believe his claim to resemble deceased prophet, and other absurdities, and you conjectured then did the look up; if not successful you would have simply skipped it similar to how those obsessed with numerology ignore all failures like drug addicts in denial look for the next fix/buzz.

Example, they read hadith revelation started in 610 CE
•   23 years (not multiple, ignore)
•   610 / 19 = 32.1052632 (not multiple, ignore)
•   1974 / 19 = 103.894737 (not multiple, ignore)
•   (1974 - 610 = 1364) / 19 = 71.78947371974 (not multiple, ignore)

Convert to lunar years: ((1974 - 610 = 1364) x 12 months = 365.242199 days) / (12 lunar months = 354.36708 days) = 1405.85959 then round to 1406 and bingo! 1406 / 19 = 74

Your observation on RK and his "encounter" is very interesting and food for thought.

Why -- did he fast during winter solstice for 10 days or was he clueless following hadith/tradition?

Winter solstice only ascent contradicts Qur'an. They do not sleep the other 365 days and 364 nights; it is a continuous/instantaneous ascent like our thoughts which instantaneously reach across the universe.

70:1 سأل asked سائل a questioner بعذاب about a punishment واقع and real
70:2 للكافرين to the disbelievers ليس is not له to it دافع any preventer
70:3 من from الله Allah ذي owner المعارج the ways of ascent
70:4 تعرج ascent الملائكة the angels والروح and The Spirit إليه to Him في in يوم day/time كان is مقداره its measure خمسين fifty ألف thousand سنة timeframe
70:5 فاصبر so be patient صبرا a patience جميلا beautiful
70:6 إنهم indeed they يرونه see it بعيدا far
70:7 ونراه and We see it قريبا soon 

Layth

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2011, 12:33:45 AM »
Dear S29,

Quote
Winter solstice only ascent contradicts Qur'an. They do not sleep the other 365 days and 364 nights; it is a continuous/instantaneous ascent like our thoughts which instantaneously reach across the universe.

There are no contradictions in the Quran my friend. God tells us that one night in the year is "special" - and that the angels and spirit are sent down with decrees on that night:

97:1 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
97:2 And do you know what is the Night of Decree?
97:3 The Night of Decree is better than one thousand months.
97:4 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of
their Lord to carry out every matter.
97:5 It is peaceful until the coming of dawn.

The verses you have quoted speak of the angels and the spirit "ascending" towards God on J-Day that has been made equivalent to 50,000 years.

The 2 subjects are not the same.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

S29

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2011, 03:14:58 PM »
Peace Dear Layth,

Dear S29,

There are no contradictions in the Quran my friend. God tells us that one night in the year is "special" - and that the angels and spirit are sent down with decrees on that night:

97:1 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
97:2 And do you know what is the Night of Decree?
97:3 The Night of Decree is better than one thousand months.
97:4 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of
their Lord to carry out every matter.
97:5 It is peaceful until the coming of dawn.

The verses you have quoted speak of the angels and the spirit "ascending" towards God on J-Day that has been made equivalent to 50,000 years.

The 2 subjects are not the same.


No, what you wrote about winter solstice contradicts Qur'an. Chapter 97 is about a night that Qur'an was revealed; it being the only night they descend conjecture. If they "descend" during revelation and "ascent" 50,000 years in the future then if approximate year of revelation is 610 CE, Judgment Day is year 50,610 CE or 50,610 - 2011 = 48,599 years from now.

Why interpret 50k sunnah as years or 50k rotations of the earth around the sun?

The sunnah/timeframe person based on cosmic events e.g. 1,000 earth rotations on axis is 1,000 days.

22:47 ويستعجلونك and they ask you to hasten بالعذاب in the punishment ولن and never يخلف fails الله Allah وعده His Promise وإن and indeed يوما a day عند with ربك your Lord كألف thousand سنة timeframe مما from what تعدون you reckon

The sunnah/timeframe/way Allah is 1,000 our sunnah/timeframe/way i.e. Day is 1,000 people days.

70:1 سأل asked سائل a questioner بعذاب about a punishment واقع and real
70:2 للكافرين to the disbelievers ليس is not له to it دافع any preventer
70:3 من from الله Allah ذي owner المعارج the ways of ascent
70:4 تعرج ascent الملائكة the angels والروح and The Spirit إليه to Him في in يوم day كان is مقداره its measure خمسين fifty ألف thousand سنة timeframe
70:5 فاصبر so be patient صبرا a patience جميلا beautiful
70:6 إنهم indeed they يرونه see it بعيدا far
70:7 ونراه and We see it قريبا soon


(50,000 x (1,000 days)) / (12 month) = 136,895.463 solar years creation of man to punishment.
Humanity/thinking man who spoke (Adam) has not been on earth greater than the above time.

The above last part I am still not sure about since there was no reference given to human time.

Peace


Indelwyn

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 02:08:48 PM »
"immaculate conception" was not about Mary being pregnant with Jesus. It is about her mother becoming pregnant with her ;) (Old Catholic here.) It is a holy day of obligation celebrated on December 8th, every year.
"Victory is changing the hearts of your opponents by gentleness and kindness."- Saladin

Mattah

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Re: The Night of Decree is on December 21st or the 22nd
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 10:31:17 PM »
I think a good many of you are unaware that life exists south of the equator... where as the northern hemisphere's winter solstice being the shortest day of the year is also the southern hemisphere's summer solstice being the longest day of the year therefor the logic is reversed on most points made about that.  So point being that whether you are a proponent of the winter solstice being the night of decree or Ramadan or whether the summer time being the time of Ramadan then the reverse is true based on your logic which makes it illogical.