General Issues / Questions > Questions / Comments on previous Scriptures (Torah - Psalms -Injeel)
Is "Quran Alone" a Misleading Title?
MaverickMonotheist:
Ok, I'm going air something I find annoying. I'm sure this won't get many positive responses, but so be it.
In response to my title, I'm going to say, "Yes, I believe that "Quran Alone" is a misleading, even incorrect, title." Here's why.
(1)The Quran is built upon prior revelation. If the same God who revealed the Quran also revealed the Torah and the Gospel, then we can reasonably expect to find a cumulative sense of revelation. New revelation corrects errors of interpretation, confirms what is still accurate, and builds upon what is in the past. Where the Quran is silent, we must assume that prior revelation is still relevant. For instance, Jesus never mentions homosexuality in the Gospels. Does that mean he endorses it? No. The Torah already addressed that. He had no reason to restate it.
(2) Errors that Christians and Jews have made are errors of interpretation, not errors of fabrication like the hadiths. Please stop comparing the two.
(3) Portions of the Quran cannot be rightly interpreted without knowledge of prior revelation. For instance, the Sabbath. Do you really believe that God gave the Sabbath, a day of rest, to people coming out of hard labor and slavery in Egypt as a punishment? The answer to correctly interpreting this verse from the Quran is in the Torah and Gospel. You need more than a passing knowledge of it.
(4) Torah and Gospel manuscripts are not in as poor shape as many muslims say. There's about 95% agreement between all of the manuscripts we have, and most of the differences are like the Quran manuscripts - differences of spelling or verb tense.
Challenge: someone who believes in the Quran alone give me a comprehensive answer as to what the title "Messiah" means, particularly for us today. Just from the Quran.
Peace,
Joel
SeekingYou:
While opening the Qur'an, as an Arabic person, I can't depend on anything else, I don't even know when this book was revealed...maybe it was revealed way before the existing torah and gospel of today and they started the Semitic languages from the Qur'an itself or it is really revealed from 1400 year...
I can understand why the Christians believe Jesus was God himself, it is because he is the only one who was directly responsible in front of God, no "Rab" Lord was responsible about him but only Allah himself...(Note that as I said in another thread, the Rab is something and Rab El alameen is Allah this is God, there is another creature who spoke to Moses and was going to show himself to Moses, Allah (yatkalam) but doesn't (speak) as you know Jesus is (Kelmat Allah))
It is really deep in the Qur'an trust me, you do not need ANY other book, place,history...none.The real problem is no one really used a Method while reading the Qur'an there are no rules...you just....read...which is a big fatal error, same error the Sunni and hadith explanation of the Qur'an made and started taking from the torah many details and pasting it in the tafaseer book as a "Explanation of the Qur'an" which messed up like EVERY thing in the Qur'an....the "Tree of Adam" "Bani Israel" "Yacoub=Israel" "Holy wars and holy lands" these are all deformed concepts in the explanations of these people..."Eve, Adam's apple, Israel of today, Torah of Moses" is not mentioned in the Qur'an....these names and characters and stories were taken from OUTSIDE of the Qur'an...this is why the Qur'an seems "incomplete" or "not really summing up the stories" but what if the incomplete in formations of the Qur'an are complete and the other detailed books are made up stories?
Unfortunately, the English Qur'an is starting to take the same style of the Bible...a story line, but the Arabic one is WAY different than a story...some think it speaks to the prophet from 1400 years, but it doesn't...it speaks of today...I know it is hard to understand me, but for real no one (even me) took a serious step in the Qur'an adapting with it's unique language that may be is similar to Arabic, but Arabic failed to interpret many mysteries in the language form of the Qur'an and many weird symbols up and down the words...
It is really a hard and consuming time process, but sure thing is, you will really take knowledge, and explanations of why things in the world is moving like that...and even what may happen and what will be the probabilities...but no one calls the Qur'an.
--- Quote ---As for Messiah means المسيح means "Scanner" from the verb "مسح" and it speaks of "Information seeker" as he was the only one who was taught "Al ketab and Al engeel and al torrah and alhekma"...this is a real KNOWLEDGE....but Moses on the other hand is a "Behavior and perfection seeker" and both names موسى and عيسى do not have a complete ending it is a ى which is A not spoken Mosy or Isy but Isa and Mosa...so it may refer to a not complete information given to Isa and perfectness of behaviors given to Moses as in "full knowledge and perfection are not finite"
--- End quote ---
BornAgain:
Salaam,
--- Quote --- New revelation corrects errors of interpretation, confirms what is still accurate, and builds upon what is in the past. Where the Quran is silent, we must assume that prior revelation is still relevant.
--- End quote ---
Will you then follow all the tedious commandments prescribed in the Torah? Such may overlap with traditional islamic practices such as circumcision, aqeeqah for newborns, food offering in the altar, some rituals in which Qur'an does neither condemn nor encourage (the ones that are left unmentioned)?
Also, clarify what you mean by Torah? Are you referring to the first section containing five books of the Tanakh (Old Testament as the Christians would say it)? Or the entirety of the Scripture that the Jews uphold (Tanakh - which comprises Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim).
--- Quote ---Errors that Christians and Jews have made are errors of interpretation, not errors of fabrication like the hadiths
--- End quote ---
I would have to agree to some extent. I have noticed that parts of the Tanakh may have been deliberately misinterpreted.
Yet the practice and knowledge of contemporary Judaism and Christianity would then be based on these errors of interpretation, no? Will you still then use falsely interpreted knowledge of prior Scripture?
Unless, you would be willing to learn Classical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to derive your own interpretation.
--- Quote ---The answer to correctly interpreting this verse from the Quran is in the Torah and Gospel. You need more than a passing knowledge of it.
--- End quote ---
I would personally have no problem with learning the previous Scriptures in their original languages, without putting my whole faith in others' translations and interpretation. My methodology of learning these Scriptures, if I get around to it, will pretty much be the same with how I approach the Qur'aan. Learn how certain words are used throughout the Scriptures, and analyse their possible meanings. You know, once you get past conventional translations and interpretations, you may actually discover that some of these Scriptures are in agreement with the Qur'aan. Translations have made it otherwise.
Anyway, I gathered from your line of argument that the Qur'aan is the 'final' testament, yeah? Meaning that whatever needs to be followed is in the final version. The previous Scriptures may be used for knowledge and narration, but as far as spiritual guidance, I will stick to the Qur'aan.
(I prefer not shaving my head for not observing the headscarf, thank you very much)
MaverickMonotheist:
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---Salaam,
Will you then follow all the tedious commandments prescribed in the Torah?
--- End quote ---
No, because I'm not Jewish, nor do I plan on someday living in a theocratic Israel as a ger toshav.
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---Such may overlap with traditional islamic practices such as circumcision, aqeeqah for newborns, food offering in the altar, some rituals in which Qur'an does neither condemn nor encourage (the ones that are left unmentioned)?
--- End quote ---
Large portions of the Torah are no longer applicable, seeing as how there is no temple and no bona fide way of determining who are descendents of the tribe of Levi, or who are sons of Aaron.
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---Also, clarify what you mean by Torah? Are you referring to the first section containing five books of the Tanakh (Old Testament as the Christians would say it)? Or the entirety of the Scripture that the Jews uphold (Tanakh - which comprises Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim).
--- End quote ---
Certainly Torah. Maybe all of the Nevi'im and Ketuvim, and even the Jewish texts written in Greek in the Septuagint.
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---I would have to agree to some extent. I have noticed that parts of the Tanakh may have been deliberately misinterpreted.
--- End quote ---
And intentionally mistranslated using rare grammatical constructions in Hebrew.
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---Yet the practice and knowledge of contemporary Judaism and Christianity would then be based on these errors of interpretation, no? Will you still then use falsely interpreted knowledge of prior Scripture?
--- End quote ---
The errors of interpretation for Jews is largely due to the application of the Talmud and Mishnah to the texts. Christians misinterpret the Gospels because they give priority to Paul over Jesus and the Gospels, or they accept the authority of the magisterium.
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---Unless, you would be willing to learn Classical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to derive your own interpretation.
--- End quote ---
My Greek is sufficient. My Hebrew is shaky, but I'm working on it. Aramaic only comprises a few chapters in Daniel, so I'll probably skip it. ;)
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---I would personally have no problem with learning the previous Scriptures in their original languages, without putting my whole faith in others' translations and interpretation. My methodology of learning these Scriptures, if I get around to it, will pretty much be the same with how I approach the Qur'aan. Learn how certain words are used throughout the Scriptures, and analyse their possible meanings. You know, once you get past conventional translations and interpretations, you may actually discover that some of these Scriptures are in agreement with the Qur'aan. Translations have made it otherwise.
--- End quote ---
You can't look at these texts the same way as the Quran. The Puritans used a similar means of interpreting as how people look at the Quran, and it horribly mangles the text. It basically created Christian Fundamentalism, and now people buy a Strong's Concordance and think they can translate Hebrew and Greek. The language has to be taken into account, but also the literary style and the overall themes of the book.
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---Anyway, I gathered from your line of argument that the Qur'aan is the 'final' testament, yeah? Meaning that whatever needs to be followed is in the final version. The previous Scriptures may be used for knowledge and narration, but as far as spiritual guidance, I will stick to the Qur'aan.
--- End quote ---
Final testament, yes. But I'd go further than what you've said here. For instance, like the question I asked: what does it mean for the Quran to call Jesus the Messiah? I don't think you can definitely answer that question from the Quran alone, but the Quran will confirm the answer from prior revelation. And I believe the answer to that question does affect how we live and informs us in terms of spiritual guidance.
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM ---(I prefer not shaving my head for not observing the headscarf, thank you very much)
--- End quote ---
Good. But Paul said that, not Jesus. ;) And he was a bit of a woman-hater, probably got his heart broken.
Peace,
Joel
SeekingYou:
--- Quote from: BornAgain on August 23, 2011, 06:33:16 AM --- I gathered from your line of argument that the Qur'aan is the 'final' testament, yeah? Meaning that whatever needs to be followed is in the final version. The previous Scriptures may be used for knowledge and narration, but as far as spiritual guidance, I will stick to the Qur'aan.
(I prefer not shaving my head for not observing the headscarf, thank you very much)
--- End quote ---
Every day I read more, I feel that it was not the final testament, but rather the oldest one....I don't know but, the way it finishes and it reveals many lost information makes me feel it is not 1400 years old only...
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version