Author Topic: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation  (Read 2849 times)

MaverickMonotheist

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2011, 01:07:46 PM »
The Islamic lunar calendar was not invented with the advent of The Qur’aan. The lunar calendar has been around and being used on a regular basis long before the revelation of The Qur’aan. The month of Ramadan is only the NAME of the NINTH month in that particular calendar. This calendar has, CONSTANTLY, ONLY 12 months in it, and is around 11 days shorter than the solar calendar. That is why the lunar calendar months, CONSTANTLY, move through the 4 seasons. By the same token the month of Ramadan just like any other lunar month can fall in spring, summer, fall, or winter.

I see what you are saying, but a strictly lunar calendar is completely useless for anything practical.  You can't plan more than a few months in advance, you can't plant crops by it, you can't plan sea voyages by it, you can't hunt by it.  A lunar calendar only works when it is used in conjunction with a solar calendar.  Precedence in prior revelation of the Torah favors a luni-solar calendar.  A lunar calendar is just so unweildy that it would have to be used for nothing else but scheduling the fasting month of Ramadan.  It just doesn't make any sense.

Are there any references to Ramadan outside of the Quran from sources that predate the Quran?  I've mostly heard people say no, but I'm willing to examine the evidence.

My point here is that, GOD’S SYSTEM is a JUST system and it will never change. It is a JUST system because for example regarding the month of Ramadan, if it is going to be within a fixed month, falling within a fixed season every year, it’s going to be favorable and very easy for some people and unfavorable and hard for others. If for example Ramadan is in summer all the time, year after year, the fasting is going to be long and hard for the people living in the northern hemisphere and very short and easy for the residents of the southern hemisphere. This does not hold water within GOD’S system of JUSTICE.

Now, if the months of FASTING and HAJJ and… move around the four seasons by 11 or 12 days each year, then everyone gradually goes through all the seasons of the year and no one will be wronged.

Peace,
Khalil

It would be a just system if Ramadan were a requirement for every muslim.  I'm not sure the Quran says that Ramadan is for everyone, though fasting in some form or another is a requirement of every muslim.  Some things God has revealed are confined within a particular time and place, and not universally applicable.

Peace,
Joel

Eikonoklastes

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2011, 01:48:33 PM »
I see both sides of the argument.  Since I don't know Arabic, I have to make most of my arguments from prior revelation where I see them fit with translations of the Quran.

Personally, I think a winter conception is supported by the gospels.  Jesus' birth happened under a period of census, which would not have been enacted to interfere with planting and harvesting in the spring and summer.  This leaves winter and fall as the choices for seasons of his birth.  Winter is improbable if the announcement to the shepherds is true.  They would not be out at night with sheep, at least not comfortably, in winter.  There may also be another clue in John's gospel.  John 1:14 - "The word became flesh and dwelled among us..."  The greek word "dwelled" refers to sojourning in a tent, which could refer to the birth happening during the time of Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, when Jews live in tents to commemorate the sojourn from Egypt.  This feast happens in the fall, around September or October depending on the year.  So, if a fall birth is plausible, count back 9 or 10 months for a normal gestation (1st births tend to go longer), then a late December conception date is the most reasonable.

But again, this is not an argument from the Quran.  The only one I can think of is the references to the prophet being cloaked or wrapped in his garments at the revelation of the first suras.  Wouldn't this support cooler night time temperatures in the winter?

I think a practical benefit of a summer Ramadan is the effect it has on the human body.  I've pretty consistently followed a calorie-restricted diet for the past 3 years, and I can tell you the first summer I clearly noticed a difference in how heat affected me.  The building where I work is not air-conditioned, so we get window units to make it bearable.  When I ate somewhere between 1,200 to 1,500 calories a day, some days I did not even need to turn the window unit on.

But I'm not sure about it being tied to the summer solstice.  Typically, the hottest temperatures don't occur until a month after the summer solstice because it takes time for the sun to raise the overall temperatures of the soil and large bodies of water.

I just don't know.  I was going to observe Ramadan this summer, and then I read Layth's posts and read the related chapters from The Natural Republic.  ;)  I believe the Quran is clear guidance, so what is it that is right in front of our eyes that we are missing?

Peace MaverickMonotheist,

Interesting. I do believe it's possible for Jesus to have been conceived around December. Even the "rhutab" season point put forth by TNR was pretty logical. But the major link described in TNR to relate the two incidents is the Spirit/Angels coming down at both the conception of Jesus and the Night of Decree. If one does NOT believe in the immaculate conception, then that means though Jesus may have been conceived around December, this doesn't mean the Spirit/Angels were present at this time of season as the announcement could have come at any time by the Spirit/Angels, and then Jesus was conceived around the Winter later on after Mary married/had intercourse, etc.

From what I gather from the thread I made in the general section, The "Immaculate Conception" of Jesus, you don't seem to believe in the event neither. So that breaks the link as far as I'm concerned. But even if we do find out the Spirit/Angels were present at the time, are those 2 events enough to make the link?

The Summer Solstice theory at least utilizes the meaning behind the word Ramadan. Like I said, it's quite difficult to believe Allah would just use the man-made month name "Ramadan", that holds the meaning of "scorching heat", but that it be a month that can happen any time or during the Winter. This Ramadan would be the first Full Moon after the Summer Solstice, so it will typically be a few weeks after the solstice meaning it would be quite hot, if not the hottest.

Ah, that's the question, what is it that we are missing... I've read a few other theories and none seem to hold as much weight as these two, perhaps we're not far from figuring it out. At least when it comes to J-Day Allah can see we were trying and not following some random calendar.  :P

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Now, we must all fear evil people. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good people.

Mushu

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2011, 04:21:29 AM »
Peace Joel,

Peace Mushu,

I think a very easy mistake to make with any language is to assume that a word means the same thing in every context.  Hebrew has several words that can mean a wide range of things depending on the context.  For instance, "olam" can refer to eternity, an indefinitely long period of time, a fixed period of time based on the context, and with a masculine pronoun can also refer to God.  All languages have words that require fluid contextual interpretation.

-Joel

Even so, the word used has to fit the structure used in the verse concerned.  If shahr is month, how does one witness a month? 
"There is one thing in this world which must never be forgotten. If you were to forget everything else, but this one thing, then you may have no fear; but were you to remember to do every single thing, but forget that one thing, then you would have done nothing at all."  - Jalal Uddin Rumi

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farida

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2011, 06:16:40 AM »
Peace Joel,

Even so, the word used has to fit the structure used in the verse concerned.  If shahr is month, how does one witness a month?

Salaam

67:14 Would He not know who has created? And He is eternally Aware/Knowledgeable au fait of all niceties and delicacies/subtlety/refinements.
The one who created this world knew of places where a month does not happen in terms of day and night breakdown. For  exampleduring this Ramadan those living  in northern countries are not witnessing the  breaking of the day and ending of the day, into thirty days, the sun does not set there its another thing that they set arbitary days for daily routine. 
To observe fast of Ramadan, seperation of day breaking and approach of the night is vital requirement for starting and ending it and those who do not see clear days and nights can not fast according to guide line set out in the Qur'an
Peace
farida

hope4

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2011, 12:24:38 PM »
Selam

Question: If we use the winter or summer argument, will the north and south-hemispher observe ramadan at different times? Also, how about those people who live close to the north and south poles, how will they observe ramadan? Also, is it really about fasting or is there something else to it?

Peace
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Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

MaverickMonotheist

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2011, 12:52:33 PM »
Peace Eikonoklastes,

So that breaks the link as far as I'm concerned. But even if we do find out the Spirit/Angels were present at the time, are those 2 events enough to make the link?

I'm not sure it breaks the link.  The spirit sent from God can, and does, touch things that are completely natural.  As for whether or not those 2 events are enough, I don't know.  Like I said, I see both sides.  :)

The Summer Solstice theory at least utilizes the meaning behind the word Ramadan. Like I said, it's quite difficult to believe Allah would just use the man-made month name "Ramadan", that holds the meaning of "scorching heat", but that it be a month that can happen any time or during the Winter. This Ramadan would be the first Full Moon after the Summer Solstice, so it will typically be a few weeks after the solstice meaning it would be quite hot, if not the hottest.

The meaning of the root does have weight for a summer fast, I'll admit.  Unless the "scorching heat" refers to something else, perhaps the closeness of God as a consuming fire during the revelation of the Quran, like Moses' experience of the burning bush and pillar of fire, etc?

Ah, that's the question, what is it that we are missing... I've read a few other theories and none seem to hold as much weight as these two, perhaps we're not far from figuring it out. At least when it comes to J-Day Allah can see we were trying and not following some random calendar.  :P

Agreed, I think these two theories are the best.  Hopefully someone will have an "a-ha" moment and see the missing piece of the puzzle.  :)

Also, is it really about fasting or is there something else to it?

I think it is about conformity and unity.  Fasting can be done anytime.  But there is something about the unifying of a group that happens when you participate in something like Ramadan together.

Peace,
Joel

san

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2011, 02:21:06 AM »
Peace Joel,

Even so, the word used has to fit the structure used in the verse concerned.  If shahr is month, how does one witness a month? 

Dude, that's easy. Just look at the calendar ;D

Btw, seriously, Joel, you should also take a serious look at the word Shawm itself, instead of just following the generally assumed meaning of "fasting".

Quote
I think it is about conformity and unity.  Fasting can be done anytime.  But there is something about the unifying of a group that happens when you participate in something like Ramadan together.

The practice of fasting across the world/religions/traditions/history surely has a lot to do with "conformity". Do you however really think that fasting is the most "unifying" act human beings can perform?

Anyway, war is among the first things I would think of when someone speaks about "scorching heat" (I also imagined a majestic mushroom cloud).


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Mushu

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2011, 02:31:24 AM »
Peace

Salaam

67:14 Would He not know who has created? And He is eternally Aware/Knowledgeable au fait of all niceties and delicacies/subtlety/refinements.
The one who created this world knew of places where a month does not happen in terms of day and night breakdown.

Not sure what this means.  A month happens everywhere, because its just a duration of time. So a month happens  regardless of day and night breakdown.  My point was how does one witness a month?  Sure, you can witness sunrise and sunset, but I don't see how that fits with the verse.

Dude, that's easy. Just look at the calendar ;D

 ;D
"There is one thing in this world which must never be forgotten. If you were to forget everything else, but this one thing, then you may have no fear; but were you to remember to do every single thing, but forget that one thing, then you would have done nothing at all."  - Jalal Uddin Rumi

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farida

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2011, 04:58:32 AM »
Peace

Not sure what this means.  A month happens everywhere, because its just a duration of time. So a month happens  regardless of day and night breakdown.  My point was how does one witness a month?  Sure, you can witness sunrise and sunset, but I don't see how that fits with the verse.

Salaam
As I understand in places where sun does not rise or sets there is constant day or night with shades of lightness and darkness,  moon rises and sets but no clear division of day and night  into thirty sections which makes a month. Time there is calculated like anywhere else in the world.
 :peace:

Mattah

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Re: Winter Ramadan (as outlined by The Natural Republic) - Investigation
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2012, 10:30:25 PM »
I think a good many of you are unaware that life exists south of the equator... where as the northern hemisphere's winter solstice being the shortest day of the year is also the southern hemisphere's summer solstice being the longest day of the year therefor the logic is reversed on most points made about that.  So point being that whether you are a proponent of the winter solstice being the night of decree or Ramadan or whether the summer time being the time of Ramadan then the reverse is true based on your logic which makes it illogical.