Why cant we scientifically prove god?

[Zulf]

Thinking about proving God... it is often a thing a disbeliever would talk about being engaged in, coz he/she doesn't believe. Scientific proof are not needed to a believer... only to a person who thinks science of today is above all... sort of the religion of science.

I think we cannot prove God thru science partly because we have the wrong idea of what God is. What are we looking for? Some dude in the sky? Some other poster said that the quran seems to talk about that everyone and everything already knows God (or whatever word we should use not to get into a wrong idea)... and then goes on saying and putting emphasis on that God is one. So the quran is not mainly talking about the existance of God, but rather its oneness and how accurate our belief is. I really liked this observation, and I'm sure there are more great posts in the thread, but I really haven't gone thru the thread.

I think that it is not about to prove or fail to prove, rather everything is in plain view already... but it is WE how cannot see what is in front of us. Our vision is clouded. All creatures know their creator intimately, except for us poor human beings... coz we have minds... and our minds f**k it all up for us, as long as we are blinded by it. So the issue is not to find a single proof for all, but instead for each and every single person to clear one's own vision. Quite a different thing I must say. We are looking in the wrong place, as usual. We are looking outside, whether physically or philosophically/logically, when we should be looking inside ourselves. There are ways to do this, but little do people know. People serve the sect of science, which should be no more than a tool through which the mind handles everyday life. When did science become religion? When did it become a criterion for things it cannot handle, see or grasp?

[good logic]

Peace all.

Is this not Science? Some might say where is the proof?:

( GOD?  Designer of the universe? Surely HE will leave some kind of proof? Sign?)

( Phi, – constant- = 1.61803… is the creator s signature on all HIS designs  i.e The golden ratio? Science has proved – See Dr Steven Markout 25 year study- that the relative ratio 1.61803… relates to all created structure of our universe. Also the sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,… – The work of Fibonacci, also called the sequence of nature, has a connection with the golden ratio – See science research on flowers, spirals, DNA, etc…- The golden ratio and Fibonacci  sequence  permeates throughout the universe in both organic and inorganic worlds and at all scales and levels to such a degree that the probability of this being chance/ coincidence is virtually impossible.  Hence a Designer, Creator exist.

What is even more interesting is the connection of the natural sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,… with  19 ?  19 is a special number that this Designer/ Creator uses as part of the code – Remember the emphasis on ONE GOD- Well 19 is the geometrical value- number value- of ONE in most languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic etc..( check it, Google it.. ) Here is a table showing this connection:

Sequence                       Sequence in reverse                     Answer

0                     +                      2584                                 =  2584              /19= (divided by 19)=                         136

1                       –                      1597                               =   -1596                /19=                                                     -84

1                      +                      987                                 =  988                   /19                                                        52

2                       –                      610                                  = – 608                  /19=                                                    -32

3                       +                    377                                    = 380                 /19 =                                                       20

5                       –                     233                                    = -228               /19 =                                                       -12

8                       +                  144                                      =  152                  /19=                                                          8

13                    -                      89                                     =  -76                 /19 =                                                          -4

21                    +                     55                                       = 76                 /19 =                                                             4

34                    -                      34                                        =  0                  /19                                                                0

55                    +                     21                                         = 76                 /19=                                                            4

89                     –                      13                                        =  76                /19=                                                            4

144                  +                      8                                          = 152                /19=                                                           8

233                   –                       5                                         =  228                 /19=                                                       12

377                  +                     3                                           = 380                  /19 =                                                      20

610                  -                        2                                          = 608                /19 =                                                       32

987                  +                       1                                        =  988                /19 =                                                        52

1597                -                        1                                        = 1596                /19=                                                         84

2584                +                      0                                      = 2584                /19=                                                       136.

( Notes.    The sequence tends to 1.61803… Hence adding and taking away. Number 2584 is the 19th term of the sequence ( a coincidence?) also 2+5+8+4 = 19 !( another coincidence?)  2584 is the first number in the sequence divisible by 19, 19 x 136 = 2584 ! ( and yet another coincidence? also after this if you continue the pattern, every answer is divisible by 19 !)

 

30:27″ .. HE is the one who initiates the creation ( First creation before the heavenly feud?), then repeats it ( creation for the last chance- the test!-?); This is even easier for HIM ( to summon you on the day of judgement?). To him belongs the most similitude ( all the symmetry you see) in the heavens and the earth. HE is the ALMIGHTY, the Most WISE.”

( Look at the connection of the sequence and 19, especially 34-34 =0 -There is a symmetry from that initial point,up and down looking at the answers when we divided by 19! .Is GOD drawing the attention to it?  Note this verse: 30:27 :  30 + 27 = 57 ( 19 x 3 = 57 !) also more importantly this verse is the 3434 th verse from the beginning of this scripture. Let s add all the verses from chapter 1 up to chapter 30:27 (up to this verse): 7 + 286+ 200+176+120+165+206+75+127+109+123

+111+43+                                                             

    52+99

+128+111+110+98+135+112

+78+118+64+77+227+93+88+69+27 = 3434 !)  ( Yet another coincidence?)

 

6:1″ Praise be to GOD who created the heavens and the earth and made darkness and light. Yet those who disbelieve in their Lord continue to deviate.”

Peace.

[Zulf]

The proof is in the very creation... but everyone cannot see it.... but it is still there!

The 19-theory is science to those who endorse it, but not necessary to others.

What does 'proof' mean anyway in practical reality?

Peace!

[GODsubmitter]

Here is an excellent information of scientific proofs of the Torah and sientific possibility of proving God:

http://www.divineinformation.com/featured-videos/torah-and-science-2/
http://www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-2/
http://www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-3/

and general issues:

http://www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/general-issues-2/

[Ruuube]

Depends on how much proof you want, really, doesn't it?

I mean, if you look at the Qur'an, you can instantly recall events in your life or situations and feelings you've experienced that Allah has already put forward (some 1400 years before you were even born) as an example.
Science is covered in the scripture, to an extent, but it isn't really a pillar of belief, because when the reality reciprocates the Qur'an and vice versa, is there need for flawed human 'proof'?

[Zulf]

To even start an attempt at proving God, we first need to know what God is...

[IAMOP]

So the issue is not to find a single proof for all, but instead for each and every single person to clear one's own vision. Quite a different thing I must say. We are looking in the wrong place, as usual. We are looking outside, whether physically or philosophically/logically, when we should be looking inside ourselves.

Exactly! The ONLY thing you need to do is clear your vision. You can't see light through dark tinted eyes.

The problem with trying to prove God from the external is that God is the most subtle of subtlety. Because God is flawless, a single incorrect perception about reality is enough to lead you astray. The only way to recognise perfection is to clear your sight and see all the information without your desires clouding it.

All these paradoxes, the problem of evil, etc, have a resolution when you know the full data. But name a single disbeliever who will accept the narrative of Satan's turning back. To them it's a made up story. How when you hold a preconception that this is false, can you then accept the rest of reality? You can't ever have the whole truth if you intentionally miss out a part of it. And only by rejecting this narrative does the 'problem of evil' have any credence.

[Faithful-Jinn]

To even start an attempt at proving God, we first need to know what God is...

Precisely. God cannot be approached scientifically without first defining God.

If you define God as the God of the Qur'an. As the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then you must then answer the question if God is perceivable in reality.

Science proves things that are measurable, observable, and testable. If the God you define is not measurable, observable, and testable, then it can never be proven or disproven scientifically.

Is your God able to be observed or perceived in any way? Does He intervene in human affairs or with the natural laws in any way? Does He perform any actions on this plane of existence that we can first observe, and secondly, attribute to Him?

[Zulf]

I'll just say like this, according to my current view.

That which people commonly refer to as God cannot be understood by the mind and its thoughts and reasoning. It has to be felt and experienced. And I'm not talking about emotions. Emotions are just thoughts, conscious or not, coming from the mind. We will never be able to figure out God. Science will never prove God, or measure it, because science deal with the physical existence, and science and mind go hand in had. They will never find God.

I don't blame people for rejecting the idea of an "abrahamitic" god... as I myself find it rather off the mark. People try to understand God, but you can't do that... so naturally the religions become fairy tales of the physical world.

God (in lack of a better word) is not a 'He'. God doesn't intervene as in sitting waiting and then taking action when needed. That is such a materialistic and physical way of seeing it. God is not an object, or person, or spirit. God is not separate. It is our awareness that is separate from God, but God is inside us all, and all of creation. Our mind (which is part of this physical world) cannot grasp and figure out God. Of course people will reject the existence of God when they desperately try to find it using the mind and science, failing to find what they look for. They look for the wrong thing in the wrong place. It is not a thing away way, and it is everywhere... but even if you see it as a spirit or energy permeating everything, you are still limiting God and making it into something it is not. Even this understanding is physical and limited to the world of our minds.

Let's not trying to figure out God. It cannot be done. One must know God, not trying to understand it. Actually, I used very wrong words when saying 'define'. We can of course not define God. My mistake.

Cheers

[noshirk]

salam

We will never proove the existence of God because, i think, he don't want to

To be a believer is to believe in God without seeing him

5:94 O you who believe, God will test you with some of the game for hunting coming within reach of your hands and your spears, so that God will know who reverences Him while unseen. Whoever transgresses from now on, then he will have a painful retribution
19:61 Gardens of delight; that the Almighty had promised His servants in the unseen. His promise must come to pass.
21:49 Those who fear their Lord in "without seeing him", and who hold the Hour (of Judgment) in awe.
35:18 And none can carry the load of another; and even if it calls on another to bear part of its load, no other can carry any part of it, even if they were related. You will only be able to warn those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, ....
36:11 You can only warn him who follows the Reminder, and is concerned towards the Almighty while unseen. Give him good news of forgiveness and a generous reward.
50:33 Who is concerned towards the Almighty while unseen, and came with a repenting heart
67:12 As for those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, they have attained forgiveness and a great reward.

In fact, even if i am not a  Rashad khalifa follower, the idea that humans took part in a rebellion against the power of God has many arguments:
38:69 "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarreled."
67:2 The One who has created death and life, that He may test you, which of you will do better works? He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
7:172 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves: "Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
33:72 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But man accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
51:56 I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to serve Me.
7:179   And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like livestock; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.


So believing in GOD without seeing him or having a scientifc proof is central in faith.
However there numerous signs but never an incontestable proof.

believing in GOD without seeing is "the contract" we made with GOD to obtain redemption and his forgiveness
Live is only a test were we tested on only one matter "to believe in Godn only one God, and do good thing in his name".
2:175 These are the ones who have purchased straying with guidance, and retribution for forgiveness; they have no patience towards the Fire.

If an incontestable proof existed, there would be no merit in believing

I think that this issue is so central in islam that it is the real meaning of the famous Rahman and Rahim
Rahim is the forgiver
Rahman is the powerful God that already expelled us from his Rahma.


Salaam