Author Topic: When is the month of Ramandan?  (Read 2425 times)

KDC501

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 09:12:39 PM »
The above red highlights are from me.

1st: If the 13th month, as you say, becomes “NULL”, then why bother considering LuniSolar calendar as the “correct” one? Just follow what GOD, swt, commands us to follow, i.e. use the pure Qur’aainc lunar calendar.

2nd: The subject of verse 9:36 is not about the number of months or "ADDITIONAL" months. It is in fact about the FOUR SACRED months of the year and the prohibition of acting wrongfully among us in those FOUR SACRED months. In 9:37 GOD, swt, prohibits the POSTPONEMENT and or the NULLIFICATION of the sacred months from one year to another based on desires of ingrates. 9:37 emphasizes on the four sacred months to be FOUR SPECIFIC FIXED MONTHS OF THE YEAR, EVERY YEAR, and that they must not be changed or be moved around from one year to another, at all.

Peace,
Khalil


Dear Khalil
Sura 10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know. (Lunar)

Sura 17:12 We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day manifest, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. Everything We have detailed meticulously. (Solar)

How can you interpret the above verses as meaning that we should use a Lunar calendar?



Now what do I mean by a ‘null month’ is a month that should be ignored. This is taken from the verse

9:37 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.

Below is an example of a  ‘null month’ (the additional month is zero)


1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 0, 1, 2, 3…….

The days of the additional month should not be included or counted.

Now in a Lunar calendar  (The Islamic calendar) every cycle occurs every 29.53 days which results in 354.36 days http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar which roughly 10 days short of 365 days

Being a purely lunar calendar, it is not synchronized with the seasons. With an annual drift of 11 or 12 days, the seasonal relation repeats about every 33 Islamic years.

Question: If  a lunar calendar is not synchronized with the seasons then how can we depend on it when it comes to the calculation of the seasons?  



Now from my understanding it looks like  God enjoys using whole numbers (using approximations)  in the Quran and not rational numbers.

http://zonalandeducation.com/mmts/miscellaneousMath/typesOfNumbers/typesOfNumbers.html

For example,

365 days / 12months = 30.41 days (Sura 9:36)


However if we look at Sura 58:4 we see that an approximation is used.


58:4 If he cannot find anyone, then he shall fast two consecutive months before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would acknowledge God and His messenger. These are the limits set by God. Those who do not appreciate have incurred a painful retribution. (sixty people = two consecutive months = 60 days = 30 days per month )



In the book “ The Natural Republic “ you can read Chapter 13 " The Calendar System"  to get  a better grasp of what I’m trying to explain to you. I’m in agreement with the majority of topics written in this book. I'm also in agreement  that the calculation of a month begins in every full moon.

Sura 36:39 The moon: We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath. (full moon)

One more thing; not every month will contain 30 days. If we’re calculating from full moon to full moon using only days it will be counted as 29 days. However the days that you count as “29 days”  should be counted as 30 days and the days that are counted as 30 days should be 31 days. This also goes for 28 days as well (which should be 29 days).  The reason for this is because all the days counted are approximations.

For example if we count the number of days from the appearance of the  full moon at December 21st 2010 to January 19th 2011 it  is counted as follows:

22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ,9 ,10 ,11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 (This is counted as 29 days , however the time of the appearance of the moon from the 21st to the 19th  is approximately 30 days and  not exactly 29 days. Remember we have to take into account the night of its appearance. This is what gives us the approximation of 30 days.

Note also if you count from December 21st  2010 to December 10th 2011 using this same system you get 365 days. You can almost say that this type of  Lunisolar calendar is like a solar calendar except in this case we are using the full moon phases to calculate time. As for the beginning of the year I used the month of Ramadan which contains the Night of Decree (Which I believe to occur on December 21st  or 22nd . Whichever day contains the longest nights during the Winter Solstice).
Note : The word ‘yawm’ which means day occurs 365 times in the Quran.


Peace,

Kevin D.Cooper.  :peace:


Scrappy-doo

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 10:50:54 AM »
Salam to all.
Bit confused, normal for me. :confused: So from all the posts I've read on this topic, am I right in thinking that Ramadhan starts July 1 and last 10 days, and the Night of Power is the night before the Fajr of the 1st  day of abstinance? Also could someone please explain why 10 days and not 30 days, in reallly really easy laymans terms  please.
Thanks
Respectfully
Scrappy
Non illigitimus carborundum

Wakas

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 11:01:27 AM »
Background information: earliest Muslim history sources show fasting was originally 10 days. See:
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_development_of_Islamic_ritual.html?id=oCvf76uT3wMC
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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Scrappy-doo

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 11:13:40 AM »
Salam Wakas.
Thanks but those pages was unavailable for preview. Do you know when Ramadhan starts this year?
 :sun:
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kgwithnob

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 11:41:24 AM »
Dear Khalil
Sura 10:5 He is the One who made the sun an illuminator, and the moon a light, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the calculation. God has not created this except for truth. He details the signs for a people who know
All red highlights within quotations are from me.

Salaam Dear Kevin,

Verse 10:5

هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ
The word “its” in your translation above goes back to the MOON, not the SUN. In Arabic Moon is masculine and Sun is feminine. The pronoun that has been used is masculine and I’ve highlighted it red in the Arabic verse above. So even if you interpret the verse 10:5 to conclude the rejection of lunar calendar, you’ve done yourself wrong. According to the verse number of years and calculations MUST be based on movement of the Moon, NOT the Sun. The Sun is stationary relative to the Earth, but the Moon revolves around the Earth. That is why in the verse above, the mentioned movement/phases, is about the Moon, not the Sun. The mere mention of the Sun in 10:5 is about its shining light.

Quote
Sura 17:12 We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day manifest, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. Everything We have detailed meticulously. (Solar)

How can you interpret the above verses as meaning that we should use a Lunar calendar?

Verse 17:12

وَجَعَلۡنَا ٱلَّيۡلَ وَٱلنَّہَارَ ءَايَتَيۡنِۖ فَمَحَوۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَجَعَلۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلنَّہَارِ مُبۡصِرَةً۬ لِّتَبۡتَغُواْ فَضۡلاً۬ مِّن رَّبِّكُمۡ وَلِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ وَڪُلَّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَصَّلۡنَـٰهُ تَفۡصِيلاً۬

In 17:12, the subject is the revolution of the Earth around itself, i.e. day and night sequence and determination of years and calculation due to the Earth movement, not the Sun.

And like I mentioned in my previous post, 9:37 is NOT about “additional month”, its about the POSTPONEMENT and NULLIFICATION of the SACRED months by disbelievers according to their wrongful desires. I don’t know where you got that interpretation regarding 9:37!

Quote
Below is an example of a  ‘null month’ (the additional month is zero)


1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 0, 1, 2, 3…….

The days of the additional month should not be included or counted.

Your logic of the “null month” does not make sense either. If you say to ignore it or take it as ZERO, then we are right back in square one, treading water! Why bother and not just follow the pure lunar Islamic calendar from the start, as GOD, swt, commands us to do so?

The rest is your emphasis on astronomical numbers and calculations that is not relevant to our desiccation and I'm not rejecting them either. They’re simply irrelevant here.

Now, I draw your attention to verses 2:185 & 2:189 blow.

 شَہۡرُ رَمَضَانَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ هُدً۬ى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَـٰتٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَٱلۡفُرۡقَانِۚ فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ وَمَن ڪَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوۡ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ۬ فَعِدَّةٌ۬ مِّنۡ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَۗ يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡيُسۡرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡعُسۡرَ وَلِتُڪۡمِلُواْ ٱلۡعِدَّةَ وَلِتُڪَبِّرُواْ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَٮٰكُمۡ وَلَعَلَّڪُمۡ تَشۡكُرُونَ
The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever witnesses the month from among you, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful. (185)

يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡأَهِلَّةِۖ قُلۡ هِىَ مَوَٲقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱلۡحَجِّۗ وَلَيۡسَ ٱلۡبِرُّ بِأَن تَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلۡبِرَّ مَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ وَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِنۡ أَبۡوَٲبِهَاۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ
They ask thee, (O Muhammad), of new moons, say: They are fixed seasons for mankind and for the pilgrimage. It is not righteousness that ye go to houses by the backs thereof (as do the idolaters at certain seasons), but the righteous man is he who wardeth off (evil). So go to houses by the gates thereof, and observe your duty to Allah, that ye may be successful. (189)

2:185 speaks of the month of Ramadzaan and whoever witnesses the month, i.e. by observing the new moon, should fast the whole month.

In 2:189 people are asking regarding the NEW MOON. They are told that the new moon is the timing sets/calendar for the people like the time of HAJJ pilgrimage and…

My point from all of the above is that GOD’S SYSTEM is a JUST system and it will never change. It is a JUST system because for example regarding the month of Ramadzaan, if it is going to be within a fixed month falling within a fixed season every year, its going to be very easy and favorable to some people and unfavorable and hard to others. If for example Ramadzaan is in summer all the time, year after year, the fasting is going to be long and hard for the people living in the northern hemisphere and very short and easy for the residence of the southern hemisphere. This does not hold water within GOD’S system of JUSTICE.

Now if the months of FASTING and HAJJ and… move around the four seasons by 11 or 12 days each year, then everyone gradually goes through all the seasons of the year and no one will be wronged.

And we are not going to need two separate Ramadzaans or Nights of Destiny as you had mentioned in your post earlier, either. This, I believe must be one of the reasons that GOD Almighty commands us in the Qur’aan to go by the lunar calendar regarding our religious rituals.

Peace,
Khalil    





kgwithnob

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 11:58:53 AM »
Salam Wakas.
Thanks but those pages was unavailable for preview. Do you know when Ramadhan starts this year?
 :sun:
The red highlight above is from me.

RAMADZAAN 2011:

July 31 – August 29 (most of North America, South America, Northwest Europe)
August 1 – August 29 (South-east Europe, Turkey, Middle East, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Australia, etc.)

http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/ramadan/index.html

Peace,
Khalil


Wakas

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 12:54:06 PM »
peace,

Salam Wakas.
Thanks but those pages was unavailable for preview. Do you know when Ramadhan starts this year?

You can read some pages on amazon. I dont know if its the right pages however.

I know when Traditional Ramadhan starts, but I'm not sure about the Quranic one, possibly because I have not studied much about it, sorry. However, I am planning to fast/abstain 10 days either during Traditional Ramadhan or sometime this year.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

www.studyQuran.org

Joe Betik

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 06:55:19 AM »
salam,

hopefully you guys will read without prejudice. read with a calm heart, and not with a mind full of conclusions. some polishing is required, but in general terms, this should suffice for the time being and could spark people to think outside the box.

in these verses, we could see the link between a few critical words and phrases. i hope this could shed some lights, but if it doesn't, please ignore this.

Quote
2:183. O you (pl.) people who believed, prescribed for you is ‘the non-talking to humans’ (alssiyam), similar to what was prescribed to those before you, so that perhaps ‘you would be mindful’ (tattaqoon).
2:184. The days are a few. But whoever among you was ill or on travel, then several days later. And for those people who are capable for it, a redress in feeding the poor, since whoever renders himself best in obedience, it is for his own good. And to perform non-talking to humans is better for you, if you know.
2:185. It is ‘a time of hot/new announcement’ (shahru ramadana), the one when revealed therein ‘the things to ponder’ (alqur-an) as guidance for people, and proofs/evidences of ‘the guidance’ (alhuda), and also the divisions/categorization (alfurqan). So whoever among you ‘who has personally experienced’ (shahida) the announcement, he should perform non-talking to humans, but whoever was ill or on travel, then it is several days later. God intends pleasant circumstances for you, and He does not intend difficult circumstances for you, and so that you complete the count and magnify God for the fact that He guides you, and so that perhaps you would be grateful.
2:186. And when My servants ask you (s) about Me, then verily I am close. I will respond to the prayer when one prays to Me. Let them listen to My call, and let them believe in Me, so that perhaps they would be properly guided.
2:187. It is allowed for you (pl.) in the night of non-talking to humans, the obscenity towards your women. They are ‘a barrier’ (libasun) for you, and you are a barrier for them. God knows that you were outwitting yourselves, but He has restored His Grace upon you as He has pardoned you, so now you can have sex with them, and strive for what God has drafted/planned for you. And you delight in gratifications until it becomes clear to you ‘the white from the black thread’ of ‘the commencement’ (alfajri), then you perform the non-talking to humans until the night. And don’t you have sex with them (F) when you withdraw yourselves ‘in submission/reverence’ (fee almasajid). That is God’s limits, so don’t you come near it. Like that God clarifies His signs for the sake of man so that perhaps they would be mindful.
2:188. And don’t you (pl.) delight in each others’ possessions by deception, when for them you offer presents to ‘the elders/more experienced’ (alhukkam), so that you may unlawfully delight in some of other people’s possessions knowingly.
2:189. They ask you (s) about the crescents, say, “They are appointed times for man and the persuasion. And it is not the righteousness ‘that you (pl.) meditate according to its disclosure’ (an ta/too albuyoota min thuhooriha), but then it is the righteousness of anyone mindful and ‘meditate in a proper way’ (a/too albuyoota min abwabiha). And be mindful of God so that perhaps you would be successful.”
2:190. And you (pl.) strive (qatiloo) in the godly path/way (sabeeli Allah) against those who strive against you, but do not transgress the limits. Verily God doesn't like transgressors.
2:191. And kill their notions (oqtuloohum) wherever you find them, and make them public with respect to what they have publicized against you. But the temptation (alfitnatu) is greater on the kill/character assassination (alqatl). But don’t strive against them on the forbidden submission/reverence (almasjidi alharam), unless they strive against you on it. So if they strive against you, kill their notions (oqtuloohum). Like that is the off-setting of the disbelievers (alkafireen).
2:192. So if they cease, then God is mercifully forgiving.
2:193. And you (pl.) strive against them as far as there is no temptation, but the obligation (alddeen) is for the sake of God. But if they cease, then there is no opposition, except against the prejudiced (alththalimeen).
2:194. The forbidden announcement (alshshahru alharam) is against the forbidden announcement, and the proscription is reciprocal. So whoever launches an aggression against you (pl.), then you return the aggression similarly on the one who launches the aggression against you. But be mindful of God, and know that God is together with the mindful (almuttaqeen).
2:195. And you (pl.) be exhaustive in the godly path/way, but don’t ‘throw yourselves’ in danger’s way and be appropriate, verily God loves the appropriate (almuhsineen).
2:196. And you (pl.) accomplish the persuasion and also the rectification (alAAumrata) for the sake of God. But if you were not able to express your mind (ohsirtum), then whatever ‘guidance’ (alhady) is easy as ‘you cannot express what are on your minds’ (la tahliqoo ruoosakum) ‘until the guidance has reached its maturity’ (hatta yablugha alhadyu mahillah). ‘So, whoever among you who was ill/uncomfortable or troubled by its principle’ (faman kana minkum mareedan aw bihi athan min ra/sihi), then a redress in ‘non-talking to humans’, or a charity, or a ‘solitude’ (nusukin). But when ‘you are calm’ (amintum), then whatever is preferred in the rectification as far as the persuasion is concerned, so whatever guidance is easy. But whoever is unable, then perform ‘non-talking to humans’ for three days regarding the persuasion, and seven when you have returned or regained the confidence (rajaAAtum). That is a sterling ten for ‘anyone incompetent in giving a lecture’ (liman lam yakun ahluhu hadiree) on the forbidden submission/reverence. And you be mindful of God and take note too that God is firm in punishment.
2:197. The persuasion is ‘the information of news/knowledge’ (ashhurun maAAloomat). So whoever has decided on the persuasion, then there shall be no indecency, no alterations nor arguing in the persuasion, and what you (pl.) perform in excellence God knows about it and you would be increased/raised, but the best of increase/elevation is the mindfulness. So be mindful of Me, o ‘the chosen ones’ (olee al-albab).
2:198. It is not an offence on you (pl.) to strive for the bounty/excess of your Lord. But if you were ‘overflowing in elevation’, remember God with ‘restrained sense’ (almashAAari alharam), and remember Him while He guides you (pl.), even though before this you were among ‘the misguided’ (alddalleen).
2:199. Then ‘you (pl.) elaborate in detail’ (afeedoo) with respect to what He has elaborated in detail for the people, and ask for God’s forgiveness. Verily God is mercifully forgiving.
2:200. So if you (pl.) have determined ‘your solitude’ (manasikakum), so remember God like you remember your fathers, or a more determined remembrance. And some people say, “Our Lord, deliver us in ‘the immediate future’ (alddunya),” and in the end there is none for him of any share!
2:201. And some of them say, “Our Lord, deliver us in the immediate future and also in ‘the end’ (al-akhirat), and shelter us from the chastisement of fire.”
2:202. These people, for them is a ‘fortune’ (naseeb) for what they have gathered, and God is swift in enumeration.

cheers!
mohammed noh
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you will have knowledge."

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hope4

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2011, 03:33:01 PM »
Selam Joe

It is interesting that fasting is interpreted as 'the non-talking to humans' in your post. I am interested to see what others think.

Peace
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Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

brook

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Re: When is the month of Ramandan?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2011, 06:52:51 PM »
In 9:36 two words are significant; so we should take them into account in order to understand the verse correctly. First is AAiddata -عدة- which means DURATION rather than number. The other is alshshuhoori -الشهور- which means FULL MOONS rather than months.

So an honest translation of the first part of the verse can be as follows: The duration of full moons in the sight of Allah is twelve full moons.

Please note that in the Arabic version of the verse an expression meaning IN A YEAR is neither expressed nor implied, althouhg the translations such as the one in the "open burhan quran browser" do iclude it in parantheses: The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)....

So the verse is about the full moons that appear in the DURATION between the appearance of a  full moon, say the scorching full moon, and its next appearance. Take the full moons which appear in the recent years, according to the nights when they appear (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2010&n=0):

26 Jun-26 Jul-26 Jul-23 Sep-23 Oct-21 Nov-21 Dec-19 Jan 2011-19 Jan-19 Mar-18 Apr-17 May-15 Jun
15 Jul-...

As is seen, there are 13 full moons between the two aperanecs of the scorching full moon at the stated dates. Now if we continue from 15 July 2011 we will see that there are 12 full moons between the time span starting from July 15 2011 and ending on 15 Jul 2012.

Both durations are God's decisions, so both are correct. What might be wrong is the postponement of 15 June full moon of 2011 to the next duration of the full moons whicih what God forbis us to do in 9:37.

Peace,
Hasan Akçay