Author Topic: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !  (Read 19100 times)

shadowpuppet

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 07:29:53 PM »
The Welsh call him Iesu.
Now, go figure.



I don't post here often....
But I wish you all peace, just the same.
Real peace ....real freedom.

I believe it does actually begin in the mind, at least as far as humans are concerned.

hawkwind

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2011, 09:17:26 AM »
the point of me posting this one, is , I came across something very strange.
the whole Quran is modified,  by it's meaning,  a lot of people here did efforts,  and maybe they're in 50% of understanding the quran,  but the major most important things that are related directly to the world order and to the highest enemies of humanity are not understood at all, way from understood. and it is really strange,  I am  gonna make  a test and see whet people thing ,  and I will post all the meanings of the words of the quran that I came across,  it's like the quran of the white house.

Isa is not jesus ,  and that is what some people agree upon, and some people don't,   but this is not the point
the point is,  the crucifiction was not mentioned in the quran at all,  and Salabouh is not the crucifiction,  but make him soluble with fire
it comes from YAssla Naran,  meaning burn in fire
Isa son of Miriam had an affair against Zorostariens,  They worshiped the trinity,  ALLAT MANAT and UZA ,  and they worshiped fire,  and whomever disagree with them,  they sacrify him in fire
therefore  Aslibana , or noulibanakum,  is Burn you and not crucify you.
The crucifiction was never mentioned in the quran,  so the quran is older that the new testament books
remember,  no one knows the history or what happened before the 18th century,  the time the frensh and british colonised the muslim world.

As salaam o aleikum.

Can you comment on this verse please, and take it in any context:

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem:
Quote
Rejecters indeed are those who have said: ?God is the Messiah,
son of Mary.? Say: ?Who has any power against God if He had
wanted to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother, and
all who are on the earth!? And to God is the sovereignty of the
heavens and the earth and all that is in-between; He creates what
He pleases. God is capable of all things.   


The Messiah or 'Masih' anointed one, was surely Jesus. 

also:
Quote
God said: ?O Jesus, son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you
and your mother, that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you
spoke to the people in the cradle and middle-age; and I taught
you the Book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Gospel;
and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow
into it and it becomes a bird with My permission; and you would
heal the blind and the leaper with My permission; and you would
bring out the dead with My permission. And I have restrained the
Children of Israel from you, that you  came to them with proofs;
but those who rejected among them said: ?This is clearly magic!??

It seems clear from double checking with Biblical sources that the Jesus of the Quran was also the Jesus of the Bible. OR are you set to cause trouble and vain talk in Muslims?



SeekingYou

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 10:34:52 AM »
Who told you that Isa was crucified? this cross stuff came from the fake history of the bible that is a translation of the contents of the Qur'an  :o These are all copies of the contents of the Qur'an translated to other languages and given to humanity as another religion...this Bible/Torah/Talmoud(Talmud) you have today is nothing related to the real ones and the Book of Moses is not the Torah...

MaverickMonotheist

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 11:36:13 AM »
Who told you that Isa was crucified? this cross stuff came from the fake history of the bible that is a translation of the contents of the Qur'an  :o These are all copies of the contents of the Qur'an translated to other languages and given to humanity as another religion...this Bible/Torah/Talmoud(Talmud) you have today is nothing related to the real ones and the Book of Moses is not the Torah...

Dude.  Whoa.  That's a pretty heavy allegation, considering the weight of the manuscript evidence and the correspondence of both Jewish and Christian writers with quotes from the existing documents going back to well before the 4th century.  I'm not saying those texts are perfect, but you are making a pretty heavy claim.  Proof?

Peace,
Joel

Student of Allah

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 07:03:13 PM »
Salam,

From what I understood of the gospels(NT) and Qur'an, the messiah is the same person. BUT, just like the God is the same God yet they mixed falsehood with truth and changed the model of God( singular to trinity), the Christians mixed falsehood about the messiah with truth. Like hadith followers, they injected every commonly available hearsay information into their deen and made it into a pagan religion. Many ancient myths have been injected into their deen, and Qur'an claims them to be corruptions by man , not divine truth. The pharisees and the scribes sold out the true Jesus for whatever reason.



PEACE

---------------------- Student of Allah

Jafar

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2011, 02:14:44 AM »
Quote
The crucifiction was never mentioned in the quran,  so the quran is older that the new testament books
remember,  no one knows the history or what happened before the 18th century,  the time the frensh and british colonised the muslim world.

Lockbox,

You got your historical facts really messed up..
1. The french and the british DID NOT colonized the 'muslim world' on 18th century.
    During 18th century.. 1700 - 1800 CE it was THE TURKS who 'colonized' the so-called 'muslim world'.
    Within that period they also 'colonized' some part of area which is now called as 'europe' such as Greece, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottoman_Empire_dominated_territories
   Their dominance on  the world trade, and their blockade of the trade between eastern region (Taoist China, Buddhist Ceylon, Sunnis Mughal Empire, Hindus Maratha, Sunnis Mysore Kingdom, Sunnis Malaya, Hindus Mataram, Budhist Siam etc..) and western europe spark the urge of 'exploration' among western european nations which starts the age of exploration which eventually lead to age of colonizations by western european nations.
2. The collection of books compiled into 'new testament' are older than the Quran.
3. Jesus Christ a.k.a Iashua Ha Mossiach IS Isa Al Masih in the Arabic Quran.
4. Christians got virtually obsessed with 'crucifixion' and 'Jesus death' (which to me are 'sickening'), just like Mohammedans got obsessed with Muhammad's life and his family. Quran put it into context.. the focus should be on the 'life of Jesus'.... Crucifixion is a horrible way to torture human with slow and painful death, invented by egyptians which imitated by the romans. It sicken me out to see that such thing has turned into a symbol of 'holyness'.... Imagine what would happen if Jesus was being put into electric chair?? The Xtians will put electric chairs in every churches and make a tiny miniature of 'electric chair' and put it in the necklace.
5. Zoroastrian (originally) did not worship fire and / or they have a concept of 'trinity'. Trinity concept was originally came from Egypt (Osiris, Isis. Horus).

The pharisees and the scribes sold out the true Jesus for whatever reason.

Again it was not the Judaism Pharisees who 'invented' this whole confusion of paganism among christianity..
Or neither it was Paul... it was a long and complicated process of cultural insemination between 'Judaism branch of Jesus and John' and Egyptians Paganism + Western Roman Empire Paganism + Native Western Tribes/Nation Paganism.

Salam / Peace

MaverickMonotheist

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 05:26:36 AM »

Peace Jafar,

3. Jesus Christ a.k.a Iashua Ha Mossiach IS Isa Al Masih in the Arabic Quran.
4. Christians got virtually obsessed with 'crucifixion' and 'Jesus death' (which to me are 'sickening'), just like Mohammedans got obsessed with Muhammad's life and his family. Quran put it into context.. the focus should be on the 'life of Jesus'.... Crucifixion is a horrible way to torture human with slow and painful death, invented by egyptians which imitated by the romans. It sicken me out to see that such thing has turned into a symbol of 'holyness'.... Imagine what would happen if Jesus was being put into electric chair?? The Xtians will put electric chairs in every churches and make a tiny miniature of 'electric chair' and put it in the necklace.

Exactly.  The cross was not used as a Christian symbol until every Christian who had actually witnessed a crucifixion had died.  Prior to that, they used either the icthus or an iota-chi or a chi-rho.

Again it was not the Judaism Pharisees who 'invented' this whole confusion of paganism among christianity..
Or neither it was Paul... it was a long and complicated process of cultural insemination between 'Judaism branch of Jesus and John' and Egyptians Paganism + Western Roman Empire Paganism + Native Western Tribes/Nation Paganism.

Salam / Peace

True to an extent.  But Paul deserves his share of the blame.  In his zeal to appeal to the Greek God fearers/believers and monotheistic philosophers, he paved the way for that kind of syncretism.  In his sermon on Mars' Hill in the book of Acts, he quotes from pagan poets like Menander to make his point.  He also applies language and imagery from the Mithras cult he would have seen in his native city of Tarsus to the death of Jesus.  Once that was done, it was only a matter of time.

Personally, I agree with Hyam Maccoby and some of the rabbinical accounts about Paul.  Paul was a convert, the son of Galatian God fearers.  He was spurned by a Jewish girl, flunked out of the more advanced rabbinical classes, and the only job he could find was as a hired thug working for the high priest.  I find some of his writings useful, but he is a bit of a snake oil salesman.

Peace,
Joel

SeekingYou

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2011, 09:26:10 AM »
Dude.  Whoa.  That's a pretty heavy allegation, considering the weight of the manuscript evidence and the correspondence of both Jewish and Christian writers with quotes from the existing documents going back to well before the 4th century.  I'm not saying those texts are perfect, but you are making a pretty heavy claim.  Proof?

Peace,
Joel
From the Arabic Qur'an:
Get me out of the Qur'an that there was a cross and people was going to crucify Isa...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that Moses had the Torah....nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that history is a divine truth...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that the bible and Torah is the same of today...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an the real explanation of the word "The book"...This is mistranslation of the word "the book" to be compatible with history...we are still affected by the history and the hadiths yet we should expel the history and the hadiths from our selves.

Now for a bigger bomb...Why did god in the Qur'an mention that this book is written by an Arabian TONGUE (not language be careful)...Didn't people of the Arabian desert know that they are speaking Arabic? did they need from god to know that there tongue is speaking Arabic? did God need that?Then there must be something else intentioned from this verse...what about the many contradictions of the language grammar and the grammar (if it is grammar) of the Qur'an???Still unknown errors? no it is not an unknown error it is just, we don't want to face it...yes the Arabic language is NOT the language of the Qur'an...Qur'an's language is an Arabian tongue that no one did explain it till now...

I can explain more but will take time, go search in the Arabic Qur'an if you can the word Moses with the Torah....there is nothing...Moses had "the book" which book? The same book God said that it's contents is included in the Qur'an...The same book the man who had some knowledge from it transported the Queen balkees to Solomon in no time..

Same book Isa knew about it with the Engeel and the Torah....the Engeel and Torah is NOT the Bible and Torah of today...Read the Torah and read the Bible of today...Specially the Torah, after reading the Qur'an...it is just a translation of the content of the Qur'an but a fake one...And since the content of the Qur'an is the book, the book was with Moses and it descended  upon humanity...here you have the real deal...These people made up new religions from the Book which has the same content of the Qur'an...

History can't be much dirty? no it can... :D

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ فَهَدَى اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لِمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَاللَّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

"People where one nation God sent prophets as heralds and warnings and he descended with them the book with righteous to judge (judge hear is returning on the book not the prophets) between people in what they became different in it and And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.


This is the real history...

Student of Allah

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2011, 10:24:19 AM »
From the Arabic Qur'an:
Get me out of the Qur'an that there was a cross and people was going to crucify Isa...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that Moses had the Torah....nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that history is a divine truth...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that the bible and Torah is the same of today...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an the real explanation of the word "The book"...This is mistranslation of the word "the book" to be compatible with history...we are still affected by the history and the hadiths yet we should expel the history and the hadiths from our selves.

Now for a bigger bomb...Why did god in the Qur'an mention that this book is written by an Arabian TONGUE (not language be careful)...Didn't people of the Arabian desert know that they are speaking Arabic? did they need from god to know that there tongue is speaking Arabic? did God need that?Then there must be something else intentioned from this verse...what about the many contradictions of the language grammar and the grammar (if it is grammar) of the Qur'an???Still unknown errors? no it is not an unknown error it is just, we don't want to face it...yes the Arabic language is NOT the language of the Qur'an...Qur'an's language is an Arabian tongue that no one did explain it till now...

I can explain more but will take time, go search in the Arabic Qur'an if you can the word Moses with the Torah....there is nothing...Moses had "the book" which book? The same book God said that it's contents is included in the Qur'an...The same book the man who had some knowledge from it transported the Queen balkees to Solomon in no time..

Same book Isa knew about it with the Engeel and the Torah....the Engeel and Torah is NOT the Bible and Torah of today...Read the Torah and read the Bible of today...Specially the Torah, after reading the Qur'an...it is just a translation of the content of the Qur'an but a fake one...And since the content of the Qur'an is the book, the book was with Moses and it descended  upon humanity...here you have the real deal...These people made up new religions from the Book which has the same content of the Qur'an...

History can't be much dirty? no it can... :D

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ فَهَدَى اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لِمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَاللَّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

"People where one nation God sent prophets as heralds and warnings and he descended with them the book with righteous to judge (judge hear is returning on the book not the prophets) between people in what they became different in it and And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.


This is the real history...

Salam,

For me, the Injeel and Torah have been mixed with falsehood just like the identity of the messiah has been hijacked and mixed with old pagan ideas. We know that they mixed falsehood with truth and sold the words of truth for worldy gain, so it doesnt matter if Injeel was given to Moses and Torah to Jesus, it simply is totally pointless from a muslim's sniper scope to die observing. In the presence of other scriptures which were present in a language other than Arabic in arabia at the time of Muhammad, I dont see a problem when Allah confirmed this to be an arabic Qur'an (in other words, removing doubt of translation recitation or recitation of the greek/hebrew scriptures in arabic).


PEACE
---------------------- Student of Allah

MaverickMonotheist

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Re: Isa is not Jesus, and Isa and Jesus are both a mystery !
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 10:53:32 AM »
Peace SeekingYou,

I understand what you are saying, but let's look at this rationally for a moment.

Yes, there is nothing in the Quran that says that the Torah and NT of today is the same as the one mentioned in the Quran.  Yes, there is nothing that says that history is a divine truth.  But also, there is nothing in the Quran that tells me I need to wear clothes, wipe my butt when I poop, or eat healthy food.  God leaves non-revelatory matters to common sense and wisdom.

(1) According to 2:41 and following, the Quran says that the Quran authenticates what the children of Israel had at the time of the prophet.  The Quran was revealed sometime around the 7th century.  Disagree?

(2) The narratives about Moses and the children of Israel following 2:41 are all (except one) confirmed in modern versions of the Torah AND the oldest complete manuscripts of the Torah.  2:59 refers to Achan's rebellion, and 2:63 shows an understanding of the literal reading of the Hebrew in Exodus.

(3) We have manuscript fragments of the Torah (of Numbers 6:24-27) dating to the 6th century BC.  We have complete manuscripts that are almost identical to the modern manuscripts of the Torah dating to the 1st century AD.  We have manuscripts of the gospels in fragmentary form going back to the 200s (AD). ALL of these manuscripts predate the Quran, and ALL of them are almost identical to the modern manuscripts.

(4) The Quran uses loan words from Hebrew and Greek that existed prior to the Quran in a number of sources and documents.  Taurat is a transliteration of Hebrew "Torah", which means "teaching", and "Injil" is a transliteration of the Greek work for gospel, or good news.  The word Sabi'un in the Quran is also probably a loan word from the Greek "sebomenoi"or "believers [in the God of Abraham]", which was used prior to the time of Jesus.  These words were used in a LOT of documents, not just Torah and NT manuscripts.  For someone to take the Quran and try to translate forgeries backwards into history, they would need to pull off a conspiracy covering many, many miles and many, many years in a coordinated effort.

Again, I see what you are saying.  But I do not believe that you can interpret the Quran in a vacuum.  I'm sorry, but Occam's Razor points to the simple explanation that prior revelation is confirmed in some places in the Quran (though it is abrogated in other places in the Quran).

Lots of Muslims believe similar things to what you are saying here.  But it is not based on evidence or reason.  It is based on an irrational, but justifiable, mistrust of the West.  It goes all the way back to the crusades, and I fear it will take a very long time for all of us to get over this mutual mistrust so we can arrive at the truth as to how exactly the Torah, Gospel, and the Quran all fit together.

I think the reason why the Quran says it was revealed in its particular language is because the Arabs are children of Abraham, and prior to Mohammed, they did not have a scripture that was revealed to them.  It is God's way of saying to his audience, "You are children of Abraham, and I have not forgotten you.  Here is revelation in your native tongue."  My uneducated guess about the so-called grammar mistakes is that the wording supports the poetry of the Quran.

Just my n00b opinion of course.  Peace to you, friend.  :)

-Joel